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Gtir Motorsport club » General Discusion » Gtir related Discussion » Water injection

Water injection

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1 Water injection on 14th February 2016, 4:41 pm

ADSgtir


Has anyone used water injection pre turbo?
If so what data /delta did you get and how much efficiency gain of the compressor did you achieve ?
Lastly did you fit a secondary IAT sensor ?

2 Re: Water injection on 14th February 2016, 5:36 pm

johnny gtir

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Ain't done it but interested in results

3 Re: Water injection on 15th February 2016, 8:46 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
adding before turbo can alter compressor map of turbo but requires perfect atomization or you rapidly damage your compressor.
Personally I would change a turbo rather than use water injection on it .
I use water injection for cooling intake charge & mount jets post intercooler. as long as iat sensor is further up stream of injection it will be supply accurate temp values, adding extra iat is mainly for data recording & measuring gains.

4 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 10:10 am

ADSgtir


Please take a look at "mechanical water injection" using low pressure for both water and air via a mixing jet , much reduced blade erosion , but still not applied correctly in my opinion to get most benefits in compressor map widening .
Going larger on turbo is always an option but waiting for boost is a bit like a kid waiting for Santa to arrive only to find you can't actually use his gift

5 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 11:28 am

Mr B

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You can net top end hp out of it but it has costs, lag is increased to some extent as the atomised water creates more drag for the compressor. exact figures of issues & gains I have no idea of as never been involved in a car using it mainly as troublesome for gains that have other ways of being reached.

6 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 12:19 pm

ADSgtir


Not strictly true , moist or wet air is less mass than dry air due to molecular arrangements , all aircraft for example fly through rain and Injest large volumes of water - they don't reduce in power or increase in fuel flow ( sign of more drag from compressor) in fact the opposite is true.
There can be an aerodynamic effect if masses of water are entering as the water flow over the fan blades (compressor blades)and move outwards , coating the blades in a film , changing the surface shape aerodynamically .
IF it's done correctly the compressor acceleration would actually increase (much faster spool ) as the load seen by the turbine reduces and energy needed to turn the compressor reduces .
If the air mass /density increases entering the turbo due a temp drop , drag is not the issue , the pressure ratio increases and more power is made - this is exactly what we want - it's always a cold day with WI .
I know it's an odd concept to grasp wet air vs dry air , 99% of people would say moist air must be more mass than dry air as it has water in it

7 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 1:09 pm

Mr B

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In a state of vapour that is true but when not it creates drag, planes loose efficiency in rain as proper rain causes more drag directly & through film on blades which when in excess is undesirable. I think problem with it is getting water atomized perfectly along with fact humid air is not as beneficial as cold air at turbo intake stage, also effect on intercooler of water condensing on inside surface is undesirable .

8 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 1:45 pm

ADSgtir


Getting the water atomised is easy , it's keeping it atomised that is more difficult , as it moves it coalesces or merges , each molecule doubles in size over and over until it reforms in droplets - so the spray cannot touch solid surfaces such as the walls of the inlet pipe , it cannot be made to centrifuge - exactly what the compressor does , it cannot be sprayed too far a distance as it also coalesces and it's speed must be kept high .
All this is only in the intake phase pre blades , and is easy to solve along with additional benefits if thought about .
Some OEM car companies have research papers on inlet effects all proved beneficial
Within the compressor the effects are well documented ,over and over gains were made and many examples exist using water in compressors .
However in car applications very little has been done , except for the few Mavericks who have had success even with a shove it in ever increasing amounts or adding meth/isopropyl - both timing and lambda improvements and removing the intercooler has been possible .
We know it works already , just not optimised yet

9 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 3:35 pm

GTI-R US

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Management
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Spoke to Adam regarding his theory on a new kind of injection cooling system yesterday and lets just say that he is an extremely clever chap.
The proposal and idea that he has put forward to me could drastically change the way things are done in terms of cooling charge temps and increased power gains with faster spooling. 'In theory' I can not see (what he has put forward to me over a very lengthy tel convo) would have no reason but not to work.

Adams car is due back at ours for a little more work and final mapping in a month or so and we will use his idea & car as a guinea pig and create something which if it works could drastically change current ic systems
Not going to divulge exactly what we are doing/items being used at the moment until the system is fitted, will then map the car without it to see max power torque produced with current setup then re-map car with the system in operation to see how much extra power we can run with the same safety margins implemented.

Watch this space on this one guys as i as well as Adam are very interested to see how this all pans out
Hopefully not cant fix it


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10 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 4:25 pm

Mr B

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Should be interesting experiment, pre turbo water injection goes back over 30 years on cars with likes of saab doing it & volvo messed with it too I believe.
a true test can only really be done by running same setup with pre turbo & post WI as comparing it against no WI will obviously show gains, I never done or dealt with pre turbo injection mainly as besides some potential for turbo efficiency other benefits such as denser air charge are favourable with post injection as vaporising & cooling effect is far more efficient & intercooler can still be used if wanted & whole system is more flexible in usage & design . Never physically tried it so look forward to your testing & ideas .

11 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 7:09 pm

ADSgtir


Testing Ideas and gathering data is half the fun in tuning cars , so it will be interesting , I have a set of CHT thermocouple leads and a display that we can plumb in ( fits under the spark plugs ) - this will give us some head temp data too .
I don't suppose anyone has any stock CHT temps to compare with?

12 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 7:41 pm

nomad

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Im looking forward to the results even though im confused duh


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13 Re: Water injection on 21st February 2016, 8:00 pm

gtir_woody

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Sounds interesting. Will be good see the results and how much difference it makes.

14 Re: Water injection on 28th February 2016, 10:40 am

ADSgtir


nomad wrote:Im looking forward to the results even though im confused duh

It is a confusing thing with many effects happening at the same time , some positive and some negative and almost always confused .
the effects also are changing as the compressor speed alters this makes it even more difficult to work out what's happening

My car had a noisy gearbox and it would have been an expensive exercise to use more boost and map for full power (quaife gear set is fitted ) until the noise was sorted .
Now rebuilt with new bearings and all good , so we can run up the new turbo to higher boost .
This will give 2 baseline dyno plots , low and high boost .
It's the water delivery system I'm playing with , in order to maximise the gains from the turbo

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