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Gtir Motorsport club » General Discusion » Gtir related Discussion » real time power of 100% stock gtir

real time power of 100% stock gtir

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1 real time power of 100% stock gtir on 15th February 2016, 11:41 pm

GTI-R US

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For those interested...... .... got a totally stock car in at the moment which is in for a few various jobs.
When I say stock I mean everything on this car is untouched from when she was brought over and it's been off the road for over 8 years now. Needed to replace fuel pump as the original had seized up but cars running quite lean so will need to check for other issues



208bhp and 205lbft torque at 0.6bar
Think standard from new they were quoted at 220hp if so then she's lost around 12 bhp but pretty much what I anticipated really


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2 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 15th February 2016, 11:51 pm

Stu

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Shouldn't it be at .8bar?
Not a bad figure tho with it being sat for 8 years.


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3 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 15th February 2016, 11:53 pm

ROB_IOW

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I always thought stock boost was 0.7 bar

4 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 12:05 am

GTI-R US

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And despite what some so called pro's will say
This is what you can make on a stock Gtir with uprated fuel pump at 1.3bar standard ecu, proven by us now time and time again
No mapping
No dramas Just need good ignition and fuel system
Just a bit of tweaking here and there


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5 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 7:42 am

johnny gtir

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Nice to see the comparison. Yes tuner up my way charged a lad a fortune in new parts then proceded to map around a boost leak. Instead of just saying he could not find the fault take it to someone who knows the cars. I found it in five mins.

On a side note stop posting good and helpful info your rep points are slowly catching your age 

ner ner

6 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 7:49 am

gtir_woody

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Nice mate, good to see difference on paper..

7 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 9:32 am

ROB_IOW

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Is that 332 on a stock exhaust and filter ?

8 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 9:46 am

Bandyleg

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Its things like this that make me wonder if I could find anywhere closer with the same credibility.... In short.. I don't think their is? 6 hours one way from me! Move your workshop closer hahaha Laughing

9 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 10:04 am

nomad

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Isnt it 0.5 from the wastegate and 0.2 from the green band restrictor .... giving you 0.7 in total .....


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10 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 10:40 am

Andy Sunny Gti

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The way I see it is yes, you can up the boost and get that power safely on the dyno with fine tuning.
But how long will it last, possibly at the limit I guess.
Reminds me of the Fiat UNo turbos back in the day. Had the in car bleed valves, wound it up to 2 bar just to race me in my stock gtir, then was off road for the year due to piston failure.

It can be done with miminal effort and fine tuning as above which is good to see.
Yes tuners can charge way over the odds from getting extra parts on the car when upping the boost, that are not required.

But I would deffo want to add exhaust, and filter to that upping boost list.

Shocked it can make that on standard exhaust and filter. Well done.

P.s looking back at that graph, it looks lovely, not struggling either.

11 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 10:47 am

GTI-R US

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yes stock boost is 0.7hg which I believe is just under .7bar
without the restrictor pipe or some form of restrictor from the plenum you wont get the .7bar will normally hit just over .5 which equates to actuator spring rate on an old actuator.

This car has been laid up for over 8 years and guy that owns it wanted a before and after comparison so we just dropped the oils / fluids, changed seized fuel pump and road tested car after freeing off brakes (actually drives very well) then did a dyno run to see what she was making.

If you look at afr line on the graph its clear to see there is a problem with fuelling as should be far richer than that so need to sort that out then fit an uprated pump and see if she will hold a bar of boost on the stock clutch.

Just thought it would be interesting to see what a totally stock car would make so with restrictor added back in she would almost make the 220bhp which Nissan originally stated dependant upon atmospheric conditions on the day.


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12 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 12:18 pm

GTI-R US

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@ROB_IOW wrote:Is that 332 on a stock exhaust and filter ?



Andy, Rob

lol no that's not the same car
this is the white one weve just sold which that graph is taken from.
That's running the usual goose type exhaust, uprated fuel pump, uprated clutch, Blitz induction & Boost controller
But other than that she is all stock, stock engine, re-circ valve, tmic, std ecu, std injectors and maf.
Everything sensor wise is functioning correctly and ignition/fuelling is spot on

And in terms of reliability.......if the engine is all good and safety margins are put in place then why would you want a car mapped at that level unless you want to throw money away, that's the point im trying to make here.
This car has now also done 4 trackdays at 1.45bar boost on a mines ecu which has an aggressive ignition map mid range but fuelling was still good which was indicated after removing spark plugs after trackdays and plug colour was spot on so it is proven that if setup correctly cars are reliable at this level, if anything at all had been wrong with fuelling then this car on a track all day would 100% have blown up.
Track driving is the ultimate test for an engine & transmission good mapping and so forth so if cars driven to its limit all day and your living above the 5k rpm for nigh on half hour intervals and you can drive your car back with no issues then you know she is pretty much spot on with everything you have done
The only safety margins we carried out prior when setting it up was using a 10w/60 synthetic oil for when things get ultra hot on track
Backing off base ignition timing
Ultraonic clean & check flow the injectors to make sure they are working to their optimum
Plus one other little thing I do which boosts ignition/spark slightly but keeping that to myself

The main thing you need is all ancillaries working correctly and a damned good engine to begin with which is very difficult to assess as you do not know if:

Oil pump is providing enough flow to all moving parts, oil galleries/pickup etc are all clear
Crank journals have hairline fractures.
Pistons that have likely gone through many heat cycles could have stress fractures around ringlands
Valves may be burnt or need lapping in, guides could be worn which will destroy new stem seals
Shim clearances clearances could be excessive & cams / rockers may be worn
All seals could be old and may well give up the ghost once you start upping the power as more power means higher temps

So as you see its not just a case of saying ''my mate said turn the boost up bro'' Laughing
Theres an element of risk if all the things above are not as they should be, but assuming they are then there is absolutely no reason to have a car mapped at that level.

Anything over 340ish bhp then Yes custom mapping is needed as the ecu can not calculate the volume of air/fuel going into the cylinders as readings it receives are outside of the given parameters for certain sensors, so in short it guestimates! which is no good as you will end up with either rich or lean points throughout the rev /load range on the fuel cell part of the map which you can adjust to a degree with items such as Apexi safc fuel controllers and the like but they do not take the ignition load map into consideration so you are kind of covering an issue by tricking the sensors instead of remedying the issue correctly through a tailor made map.

Just thought it would be useful info to a few of you as many tuners will always try sell you a custom map (even to run a measly 1 bar of boost with claims of much higher mpg, more power etc etc)
So if you know no different then youll get your arses and wallet spanked when you have absolutely no need to.

The doubters will carry on doubting as they have been fed crap for years, that's their lookout lol
All im trying to do is help those out who know no different and minds are still open. This is not coming direct from myself (although ive suspected this for years) but from a world class tuner who's been in this game since before the group b days designing, engineering and mapping all kinds of race cars and I would not question one thing the man tells or teaches me and he has backed up my thoughts above having looked through certain maps on generically chipped and stock ecu's and gains we have achieved since getting involved in the tuning side of things, many of our customers have reverted back to stock ecu's after having maps installed which they certainly did not need and infact the main reasons for doing so are because of the claimed benefits being poor drivability, less power, bad fuel consumption (they are the lucky ones lol) unfortunately many cars we have in have already suffered the consequences of a piss poor map by having engines blown, which is good for us I suppose but not so good for the average Jaoe in the street with limited funds.

Ask yourself this question people...............Why would I share this info?
When I could so easily take all your monies and just say ''well sorry sir but you will require one of our custom tailored maps on the latest all singing & dancing ecu'' which will cost you £xxxx amount Suspect
Then il grab more money from you with all the added extras such as Engine rebuild, gearbox rebuild, performance clutch, latest turbo, manifold etc and if you don't go for it all at the start then who cares! if your engine goes kabooom chances are il still get the job anyway so its a win win situation all round  Laughing  

We still do a large number of Pulsars as most people realise that I/we are genuine and  true car enthusiasts.
We do a lot of other cars too both mainstream & performance so have absolutely no need to grab work by making false claims and flogging you stuff you really do not need!  So in short if we say its needed then you can bet your bottom dollar that yes you do need it.

Purpose of this little rant is that no matter who does what to your car ''don't be a sheep and get mugged off'' do your homework and do not believe all the rubbish you hear on forums as a large percentage of it is just crap.


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13 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 2:09 pm

Andy Sunny Gti

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Loving the intellect Bob.
Love reading your long comments.
Good read/ explanation.

14 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 3:00 pm

Mr B

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Main issue is standard injectors, pushing over 80% duty is not a good thing really, pintle in injector are in a floating state a little beyond that so fuel delivery is not accurate. Delivery rate at 90% is classed as static & no additional fuel delivery is really possible.
Many mapped ecu's are indeed junk, nissan spent millions on ecu development along with some of top engineers & equipment on offer & drive-ability & cold start mapping can take bit of effort get spot on when starting from scratch.
Piggy backs can do a grand job allowing hardware changes but retaining all refinement of nissans oem ecu, I had really good drivable reliable cars on simple piggy backs .
54c is tough lump, most of the fooked pistons & bores came down to bad mapping & people running too much boost without proper checks .

15 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 16th February 2016, 4:39 pm

johnboy

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Not forgetting the 262 you got out of mine at .7bar and totally standard, including filter and exhaust. Very Happy Very Happy

16 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 17th February 2016, 11:16 am

GTI-R US

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yes that car you bought up here John does seem to be making a lot of power considering it is all pretty much standard.
Its interesting to see how both cars make peak power very late in the rev range (around 7krpm) yet a modified car makes power normally around 6200-6800rpm plus the car you bought up is running low 10afr so fairly rich given the fact that its stock.

Im wondering that with your car its possible that its running more ignition if the timing has been altered at some stage, also does your car have a decat pipe on it or still have the cat fitted?
Assuming it hasn't a cat due to the low afr reading


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17 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 17th February 2016, 8:17 pm

GTI-R US

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well finally ran the stock car today after sorting a fuel pump wiring issue out and cars driving great and still has original cat fitted too

This is what she produced at 0.9bar after a little fettling




very very good torque figure at 280lbft


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18 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 17th February 2016, 10:42 pm

johnboy

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That's impressive.  thumbsup

Mine has got a decat on it and it's also got the UK Sunny ECU, don't know if that will make a difference? I'll check the timing next time it's running but I think I set it about 17.

19 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 17th February 2016, 11:13 pm

nomad

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So being a total novice looking at the graph .... is it normal for the torque to peak then drop off like that i see the bhp goes up and doesnt tail off ...


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20 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 17th February 2016, 11:39 pm

ROB_IOW

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Bob did you get my fb message about my friends 200 sx that needs a magic touch

21 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 18th February 2016, 10:22 am

GTI-R US

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@nomad wrote:So being a total novice looking at the graph .... is it normal for the torque to peak then drop off like that  i see the bhp goes up and doesnt tail off  ...


yes perfectly normal on most cars Leighton unless engines built/mapped to a spec where peak torque would be held.
What I do find a bit strange is how she holds peak power virtually until the redline but il ask the big chief Terry when I next see him why that's so as I don't really know, but what ever the reason its definitely a good thing.......oh and btw this is also on the original stock clutch too.


Rob.......rarely go on fb but will have a look tonight or drop me a pm on here fella


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22 Re: real time power of 100% stock gtir on 19th February 2016, 4:28 am

Indy


Excellent read bob great research very well done

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