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Gtir Motorsport club » General Discusion » Gtir related Discussion » where to buy a standard 27mm radiator

where to buy a standard 27mm radiator

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1 where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 11:18 am

mc_hawkings24


I have an alloy one but its far to fat for my setup.
I need a standard one have seen you can get 27mm thick cored ones over the 16mm core radiator i have.

Where can i get one as i need it before next saturday

2 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 11:45 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
you referring to the european sunny gtir with double core rather than jdm single .
Pretty sure I remember a thread on them but can't recall if was used uk sunny or new one .
If I stumble upon it I will add a link .

3 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 12:04 pm

mc_hawkings24


Don't really know tbh but i have found this one while im sitting outside
http://m.bestpartstore.co.uk/948250
I think this is the part number for the larger radiator 21410-59Y00


http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/radiator/nissens-62963_g470_a12362963.html

26mm nissens

or

http://m.bestpartstore.co.uk/948250

32mm hella

4 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 2:15 pm

johnny gtir

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moderator
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Couple one bay as there the same as the Gti ( I fairly sure)

5 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 6:00 pm

mc_hawkings24


Yes i've been looking at rads and the numbers cross over to gti i think, need a have a good look on the pc. Going to ring up motor factors tomorrow and give them the nissen part number.

6 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 10:40 pm

grim_d

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Really no need for bigger radiator in most cases, especially on road. I run 380bhp on standard radiator, even on hottest of summer days the temperature never climbs.

Which is more than can be said for the oil.

7 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 20th March 2016, 11:31 pm

mc_hawkings24


Standard ones battered and i'm off to nurburg in may so i needed a new one but i didn't research and only checked ebay otherwise i would've bought a standard one.

Got rolling road this saturday aswell so need it before then

8 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 7:39 am

johnny gtir

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moderator
grim_d wrote:Really no need for bigger radiator in most cases, especially on road. I run 380bhp on standard radiator, even on hottest of summer days the temperature never climbs.

Which is more than can be said for the oil.

Surly a bigger rad will cool better and water cools the standard oil cooler and flows round the block so will aid in ways to keep the oil temps down ?

9 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 8:37 am

grim_d

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The radiator will only cool the water as far as the thermostat allows. A bigger radiator doesn't change the operating temperature. (putting aside that coolant temperature is also Ecu monitored)

What a bigger radiator would do would be to control overheating if it were an issue.

My comment re oil was that the coolant gauge never changes but oil temp can fluctuate a bit.

10 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 9:55 am

grim_d

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Of course but the point I was making is that the biggest radiator in the world doesn't change the temperature of the stat. The minimum operating temperature and therefore overall coolant temperature remains the same.

If you need to cool oil then really an oil cooler is the dish of the day.

I'm not saying a bigger radiator is a bad idea by any means but really has little benefit to the average user.

11 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 10:29 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
I would agree with grim in his reasoning.
people go silly on rad sizes, when not really needed & system needs good water circulation and air flow through rad & engine bay to make temps cool.
I seen a few R's on standard jdm rads cope fine even in heat here on track within reason but the european double cores & a switch to elec pumps or underdriven water pump (by larger pump pulley & smaller danper pulley as not enough room to underdrive it enough with just pump pulley) add to that a suitable rate thermostat & low mounted short run smallish thermostat oil cooler with good airflow & it good for lots of long track use even here in asia where at mo ambient temps probably about 37degC.
It pointless going to big as unneeded weight right in a area that really not good on an R :-) & standard high rpm flow issues of waterpump won't make use of it anyway.
The standard water/oil heat transfer unit on the oil filter housing actually helps speed up heating of oil as that in it's design, coolant system gets hotter way faster than oil so it transfers heat to the cooler oil getting it up to good working temp range as that really helps engine life & economy.

12 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 4:42 pm

mc_hawkings24


So the next question, would i need an oil cooler?
I swear i saw a reply from bob on here earlier



Last edited by mc_hawkings24 on 21st March 2016, 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

13 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 5:44 pm

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
if doing a lot of track use then possibly yes, for short track use & right climate you can get away with it but best way to know is by logging some temps so you know for sure.
If get a cooler don't go too big & keep it neat with sensible pipe runs & cooler preferably mounted lowish so holds oil better when not in use plus smaller lower mounted is easier on pump.
Trouble with oil is you need it at right range as keeping it too cool is no good either  so be sure get thermostat controlled cooler ...
On the road in uk climate you don't need one & short track work can be fine without one .

14 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 6:55 pm

mc_hawkings24


I'll be going to nurburg in may but i can't say if i'll be racing it round or not as i'm wary of crashing and costing lots of monnies. I think for 4 runs round the track is 75 euro but i'd need to check but i'll be going for the experience more than anything.

I have however bought the nissens radiator for £67 off ebay earlier but they don't have it in there store, it's at there depot so i can't collect it and probably won't get it before the bank holiday. I'll have to refit the old radiator

15 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 21st March 2016, 8:47 pm

johnny gtir

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moderator
moderator
Everyone to there own I sort of agree as some run 50mm etc. I went for the mishi moto one its direct fit sure it's 36 or 8 mm. I just found the fans did not kick in as much and ran better temps. And it looks far nicer. But agree oil temps must be monitored I run 10/40 n 16 row cooler very hot weather and on spirited days in summer it's fine on track I run 10/50 but always monitor it on my stack gauge and not that car gets used much in winter but I don't run the cooler

16 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 22nd March 2016, 6:00 pm

ADSgtir


The radiator size wise makes very little difference :
The coolant is a flow controlled system by the stat and relative to engine speed by the pump , for fast warm up and close temp control the stat is shaped .
The total capacity for heat is due flow , the stock radiator has ample capacity - take out the stat and the engine runs cold .
Once the cooling system runs out of flow capacity , the secondary heat control kicks in - the oil system , at high rpms ( more ignition events per min ) the more the heat is produced - this excess heat is absorbed by the oil system and its temp rises .
The oil temp rise is sump oil temp , total return heat and cooled by airflow over the sump .(hence oil coolers added)
The oil system also has a limit to its flow capacity , also a flow controlled system , once this is exceeded , the block and head temperatures rise - this heat is transferred to air - in the engine bay .
Once this path is exceeded - head and block temps rise again - and lastly you see the water temp rise .
This is the supply water temp to the head .
This point it's all gone wrong !!
This is why cylinder head temp data is important - it's a true indication of what's happening , too hot and too much heat is passing through valve seats , valves , spark plug threads ,rings and Pistons .
Some modern cars use an electrical thermostat , it has an element in the stat - so if you floor the car , the ECU knows you are about to make heat - it signals the stat to open more and increase flow - in effect predicting the head temp rise before it happens and maintaining a more constant head temp .
All this is going on with no change in your temp gauge
The water temp guage is a "something's gone horribly wrong" gauge , and oil temp is a "something's going to go horribly wrong if you keep doing this " guage

17 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 22nd March 2016, 11:13 pm

nomad

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Admin
Admin
So whats the answer to improve it then ... ???


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18 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 23rd March 2016, 6:36 am

ADSgtir


Much depends on the car usage , road or track , budget , and power increase , the simplest changes are cheap but have some negative effects .
You can increase the coolant flow , you can increase the oils capacity to absorb heat , you can improve the air around the engine ability to escape more easily for example .
Increase the pump flow with gearing , negative impact with cavitation causing air bubbles , fitting colder running thermostat (running not opening temp) negative effects on fuel consumption /emissions and at low power use , drill a hole in the stock stat , negative effect in engine warm up times , fit a dual stat , negative is cost .
And so on

19 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 23rd March 2016, 6:51 am

johnny gtir

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moderator
moderator
Just shows still learn with these I though bigger rad gave move chance to cool it due to bigger surface area . The fact it actully held more so would not heat up quite as quick and cool faster once the car is turned off, better fans than standard Attached to rad and oversize pulley to minimise cavitation. Bonnet raisers and a cold air feed to bay was my route

After that I would look at waterless coolant which has come on a long way and or electric pump

20 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 23rd March 2016, 11:15 am

GTI-R US

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Management
Management
very good explanation by ADS as to how the coolant system works in relation to oil temps, which was what I was trying to get across but not so good at wording lol.

When we run a car on dyno now we check head temps at various points with a laser thermometer and you would be amazed at how the temps can vary due to various reasons, if you address these issues you will have a car which lasts a great deal longer (applies more so to track use obviously)

Everything going on in your engine generates heat which is transferrable from cylinders, oil galleries & waterways so if one thing is not correct it will have a knock on affect with something else and raise temps.
One thing that springs to mind is a 'Thermostat' many people believe that its mere purpose is to allow fast warm up of a cold engine and that by removing it you will have a cooler running engine.......well you would be mistaken!
The stat if removed will allow a much faster flow of coolant which for a time will be fine and engine temps will be very cool..........but during the summer months on a long run or if the car goes on track you will find that once the gauge starts creeping up it will then rise rapidly until the engine eventually boils up. This is because its designed to hold up the coolant flow giving the radiator and fans a chance to cool the fluid as its no use it rushing through at an uncontrollable rate.
Then other modifications such as pump gearing plays a major part in cavitation over 5500rpm to which these engines suffer greatly, that's why years back we were the first to start using the Gspec underdriven pump pulleys which do stop cavitation and then you are eventually beginning to get somewhere with regards to keeping all temps down not just coolant because as said everything has a knock on affect.


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21 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 23rd March 2016, 7:16 pm

ADSgtir


All modern cars both over cool and under cool by design , the older cars (30s 40s 50s) used to have massive radiators and huge sumps , this gave horrific drag coefficients , so modern cars went to tiny radiators and sumps .
They over cool at speed , (better head design, pumps and rad airflow , etc ) so the stat controls the flow - the goal is CONSTANT temps no matter what the load is .
When stationary the car is undercooled , even at no load /idle it would overheat , so fans were added again the goal is a constant temp .
Better quality cars use a viscous fan as it gives a more constant temp , but if no room is available , sideways fitted engines or as a cheaper design option then electric fans are used - these cause cyclic temp changes due the use of an electrical temp sensor ( fan on /off temp targets and delay times)
Aluminium cylinder heads are damaged by over temps and cyclic temp variations - expansion causes cracks in valve seat and spark plug areas and fatigue it also stresses gaskets causing sealing issues.

The oil system as a secondary heat control is fine BUT at high speeds , the temp rises even without adding power tuning , 120 degree oil is common on fast motorways with many cars , the oil temp is sump oil temp , so return oil after its done its job . Around the engine this temp can be 60-70 degrees higher , so up near 180 degrees at the piston rings !!
Same thing under the piston where the oil is cooling the piston with a spray , these higher temps thin the oil , so the oil film at the rings is thinner , this effects the temperature at the rings , the heat passes across the piston surface and through the rings to the block .
Detonation is now much much easier with a tuned ( read higher boost) engine .
This is why race engines use dry sump systems , it allows very close temp control and usually cool both the scavenge sump oil and the return to tank oil , using two oil coolers .

22 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 23rd March 2016, 9:31 pm

ducie54

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I would never run a 50mm core radiator in my car, having more surface area and volume has its disadvantages. If you cant get a negative pressure behind the radiator you will have limited airflow through the core. A 38mm core with the biggest fans you can fit will give good results.

Core fin pitch is another thing to look at when your after custom systems for high end builds. This is worth a read if you have time.

http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/research&dev.htm


23 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 25th March 2016, 1:01 pm

mc_hawkings24


This has been a good read very informative. I will unplug the side bonnet vents for the track and i have seen a group buy on replacement headlight vents for track so could be good to aid abit of airflow. I was thinking of going flat bonnet when i repaint the car and get a few louvres pressed in

24 Re: where to buy a standard 27mm radiator on 25th March 2016, 1:27 pm

ADSgtir


Airflow around the engine bay is mainly about extracting warm air , radiator warmed air passed through the rad ,usually exits below the engine aided by the under tray (they usually have an opening in them) using the undercar airflow .
Side vents in wing usually use a low pressure area around the wheels to suck out air.
Bonnet vents usually use over bonnet airflow to suck out air from the top areas of the engine bay - strangely the gtir has plastic blanks - so they do nothing!!
If stationary over bonnet vents still partially work , simply due hot air rising and being allowed to exit .
Often if a car is dirty and it rains you can see the airflow over bonnet in the dirt lines - this helps in placing louvred openings - cheaper than a wind tunnel !!!!

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