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Gtir Motorsport club » Tech room » Help and Advice » Help!

Help!

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76 Re: Help! on 31st May 2016, 3:37 pm

Cosmic73

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[quote="PartyPete"]

This photo shows Petes 1st gear brass snychro teeth sheared off as expected, however if you look closely you'll see zero gap between the brass synchro ring and the lower toothed ring! Factory clearance is 1.2mm and the wear limit is 0.7mm, but this is zero!
Zero clearance means the synchro does not reduce the speed differences between the inner and outer cones and you have effectively a dog box?

We also noticed damage to the mainshaft bearing cage and bearing housing. Suspected spun shim, inadequate clearance or wrong bearings fitted. removing the outer bearing race should confirm this.

To fix it i reckon;
All wear limits need checking and synchros replaced if required,
Detent balls need checking and replaced if required,
Detent springs need replacing,
Synchro spring clips need stiffening or replacing,
Both main shaft bearings need replacing,
Bearing clearances need checking and reshimmed,
All floats need checking and worn parts replaced as required,

At least the gear teeth are fine!

Pete, Im back at work tomorrow and will do that list for you then.



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 17th June 2016, 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

77 Re: Help! on 31st May 2016, 3:56 pm

Stu

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I have some brass synchro rings if you want them pete.
Just cover the postage mate and i will post all if the ones i have out to you.


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78 Re: Help! on 31st May 2016, 4:17 pm

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
Ring possibly worn badly due to loose/offset selector, selector and sncro issues are big headache for par as they take blame when it really poor builder and when I spoke to par box builder over a Subaru par box I rebuilt, he estimated 70% of faults came back to this area of a build.
Cage damage looks like possible handling damage during fitment/removal perhaps, has the bearing skidded due to debris caught within rollers and race ? How much debris was present within box ? I would go with all new jap bearings unless some new already & serviceable , new syncros, selector clips balls springs as deemed needed .
Thankfully £2.5k of par kit didn't get trashed ... original gearbox builder does indeed need shooting, I would kick him in bollocks once for every time you had pull that box first though ...

79 Re: Help! on 31st May 2016, 8:11 pm

johnny gtir

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moderator
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As I said builder issue and thank god you offered cosmic. Please pm your builder details so I can stay well fooking clear Pete

80 Re: Help! on 31st May 2016, 8:18 pm

Cosmic73

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@Mr B wrote:Ring possibly worn badly due to loose/offset selector, selector and sncro issues are big headache for par as they take blame when it really poor builder and when I spoke to par box builder over a Subaru par box I rebuilt, he estimated 70% of faults came back to this area of a build.
Cage damage looks like possible handling damage during fitment/removal perhaps, has the bearing skidded due to debris caught within rollers and race ? How much debris was present within box ? I would go with all new jap bearings unless some new already & serviceable , new syncros, selector clips balls springs as deemed needed .
Thankfully £2.5k of par kit didn't get trashed ... original gearbox builder does indeed need shooting, I would kick him in bollocks once for every time you had pull that box first though ...

I agree Mr B,
Maybe the buider did no measurements and i would challenge him to provide documented proof. He must be blind to miss that totally worn synchro.
Its like i said to Pete, a gearbox is only as strong as its weakest link. You wouldnt rebuild an engine with worn bearings so why bother rebuilding a gearbox with worn rings.

Pete also mentioned that the builder decided to remove and leave out a spring from the the reverse interlock! Apparently its not important!

The good news is the PAR gears look good, with good flank contact and no signs of misalignment. My worry was if a bit of metal went through mesh and statically overloaded the teeth, but the teeth show no signs of debris damage.

Bearings showed signs of debris damag so yes this may explain why the outer races and shims had soun. The input shaft main bearing OD and shims showed spin damage too, but i cant be sure its not from a previous rebuild.

One last thing. The main shaft bearings changed part numbers and i know you cant fit the new bearings into the old outer races because they are a different angle. If builder didnt change the outer races (because they looked ok) then that would also explain a lot.



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 17th June 2016, 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

81 Re: Help! on 31st May 2016, 8:37 pm

GTIRSI

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Events Organiser
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Wow you guys are a wealth of knowledge!!! Most of this if to technical for me to understand.. But definitely sounds like a bad build....

Fair play to You pete for sticking with, I have had gear box problems but nothing compared to this

On a lighthearted note can you leave that reverse interlock thing out as I quite liked pushing him back in parking spaces at shows it was a laugh lol!

82 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 8:26 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
bearings should never be fitted without the new outer race too ... once again amazing how many do it that way or cross used bearing parts, okay for a quick cheap or emergency shitbox road car fix but not okay for a high power track box with expensive new gearkit. I always use small amount of bearing retainer on outer race on final assembly as can prevent race spinning & keep casing future serviceable .
bearings quite cheap too (any online or local bearing specialist can supply same oem jap bearings) besides the 2 nachi ones .
very rare these days you going get a box with good enough bearings & syncros for rebuild with new gearkit, 15 years ago it was quite easy as many lower mileage R's had factory untouched boxes in great order, those days are pretty much well over & box needs new bearings & syncro & selector parts to be any good long term .
R boxes with decent gearkit & built well are strong & many out there handling +-600hp range .
R's gearbox slating mainly down to bad builders and stupid clutch choices as it quite decent little box really & cheap in world of 4wd gearboxes .
Nobody likes the cost of a gearbox build including myself but you got throw extra $ on parts besides the gearkit or you just throwing money & time away, Pete was willing with loyalty & funds but a dipsh1t of a builder has cost him time money & R love. choose who does your work with extreme care, same for engines, too many idiots out there good at the talk but useless at the work bench .
Hopefully with bit more $ thrown in on new parts & thoughtful rebuild will have pete sorted & enjoying his R & proving reliability not an issue when built proper ...

83 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 12:23 pm

PartyPete

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the one star club
the one star club
I'll wait and see how much the new parts are ( if we can still get them) and hand it over to Neil and see if he can work some magic on it Smile I've lost faith in the other guy now Evil or Very Mad

84 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 3:27 pm

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
It's all still available, some main dealers are just useless & not interested due to age & fact it may not be on their current PC system . Good luck pete and thumbs up for sticking with it ...

85 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 6:59 pm

Cosmic73

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Pete,
This are the minimum part numbers you will need if you're lucky.
Main shaft bearings,
3222379e10 (or e62)
3227379e00

Boot gaiter, 32859-03e01

1st baulk ring, 3260780560

However, until your gearbox is stripped down and Fully inspected its likely it will also need more, potentially including,

1st gear synchro springs x3, 3225979e00
2nd gear baulk ring, 3260479e20
3rd and 4th baulk rings x2, 3260403e15
5th baulk ring, 3260739e17
Spacer mainshaft, 3213803e00
Detent balls x3, 3282926760
Detent spring, 3283003e13
Detent spring, 3283003e12

This is a big job and requires specialist inspection tools and facilities which i dont have in my garage!
Also parts will take ages to arrive.
Im just being realistic mate, this isnt a weekend job, but probably over a month to do right and i dont want to waste your time.

86 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 8:44 pm

Gostek

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Events Organiser
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It looks like we've got ourself club box builder lol!


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87 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 8:57 pm

nomad

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Maybe start a club fund to buy neil the tools he needs for all the gearbox builds coming up Laughing


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88 Re: Help! on 1st June 2016, 9:35 pm

PartyPete

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the one star club
the one star club
Neil that's great, I'll ring Nissan tomorrow and see what I can do, I don't care if it takes a month, I want it done right! I'll let you know what they say. Cheers for this

89 Re: Help! on 2nd June 2016, 11:16 am

Cosmic73

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@nomad wrote:Maybe start a club fund to buy neil  the tools he needs for all the gearbox builds coming up Laughing

I would love to do this full time, in fact a few years back i contemplated setting up my own gearbox business, but i got promoted at work and it went by the wayside.  Sad

Luckily at work i have the use of presses and a fully equipped gauge labs, which is great for inspecting components and as long as i don't take the piss no one minds.
The problem is however sneaking in an entire gearbox to be able to measure the bearing clearances which is taking the piss.
Measuring this for Pete's gearbox will have to be done by a specialist met company.

With my gearbox I didn't inspect the bearing clearances. I made the assumption that the majority of the tolerances are from the existing casing and shafts (which weren't changed) and only minor tolerances would stem from the new taper bearings so current shims would be fine.
I also did a torque to turn test to makes sure the bearings weren't too loose or tight. Not exactly scientific, but it was my box and i took that calculated risk.
However I wouldn't risk that with someone else s box, especially when the shims are toast! :chop

90 Re: Help! on 2nd June 2016, 12:18 pm

PartyPete

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the one star club
the one star club
Parts ordered, they have them in stock in Europe so should have them in the next 10 days, £177 for the 2 bearings, baulk ring and seal.....gulp Shocked

91 Re: Help! on 11th June 2016, 8:00 pm

PartyPete

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the one star club
the one star club
So, after a trip to Neil's today with the box he has found this....

What appears to be the incorrect outer race for the bearing.....creating all sorts of problems

THIS IS A VIDEO BTW



Last edited by PartyPete on 12th June 2016, 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

92 Re: Help! on 11th June 2016, 10:16 pm

Gostek

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So let me get it right... somebody was too f***king lazy to remove outer race or even check it for that matter??!!?? affraid


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93 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 8:28 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
Refer to the workshop manual for setting the RS5F50A input float & mainshaft, diff preloads.
The torque turn test is good safety check you got it roughly right. Is quite easy do with basic engineering tools: vernier caliper, depth gauge, micrometer set & decent dial gauge. Just study the manual & it will become quite clear on how to achieve good measures to select shims.
You should never cross fit inner outer bearing races, they are matched pairs, you can guarantee that box builder didn't check shaft shimming either, shocking but very common in average gearbox rebuild shops unfortunately . I would be getting money back on PAR rebuild at the minimum, if he awkward just name and shame as people offering pro services with no good knowledge or ability need be flagged to save customers from headaches and money loss .

94 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 8:37 am

Cosmic73

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Still thinking anout this



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 12th June 2016, 9:40 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : What i wrote just doesnt make sense)

95 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 8:39 am

Cosmic73

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Question



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 12th June 2016, 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Not making sense)

96 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 8:52 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
It exactly why it was worn, shifters were thus offset & the snycro was loaded all the time, finally when he punched it hard in 3rd it caused enough shift to try & engage this loaded & hub chewed it up :-S
surprised more damage was not done, it quite easy see bearing outer race taper difference & even on matching taper bearings from same make you don't cross inner outer races unless some sort of emergency/bush-tech used part build up .
Very lucky didn't crack the casing & damage £2.5k of gearkit :-/ the guy who built that needs be put straight before others suffer ... R boxes are pretty good, most problems are always aftermarket builds, engines can be much same unfortunately ...

97 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 10:57 am

PartyPete

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the one star club
the one star club
@Gostek wrote:So let me get it right... somebody was too f***king lazy to remove outer race or even check it for that matter??!!?? affraid  

This is what it appears yes,the difference in size was unbelievable!

98 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 11:12 am

Cosmic73

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ive had a chance to examine the bearing in good light and the evidence is 100% certain.

The fitter definitley used the correct outer race.

Im still racking my brains because im sure the race we popped out was the NSK one, but its physically impossible and therefore we must have mixed it up with my old one all the excitement.
Embarassed



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 17th June 2016, 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

99 Re: Help! on 12th June 2016, 3:09 pm

PartyPete

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the one star club
the one star club
No worries either way as long as it's all going to be reassembled properly within the correct tolerances that's all that matters

100 Re: Help! on 13th June 2016, 1:55 pm

Cosmic73

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OK, so today things are getting more serious,
when i split my gearbox all, the spline gears slid off fairly easily.

On Saturday we couldn't even budge 5th on Petes!!
So we warmed it up a bit and eventually Pete pulled it off.
We tried the same on 4th but it wouldn't budge at all so it clearly needed a press or bearing puller,
I agreed to take it to work and use the puller from our maintenance dept,

So this afternoon I followed the manual; step 4;




But it was hard to pull this gear off and the splines show heavy contact marks.



Step 5 in the manual is to remove your 2nd and 3rd gears;


Basically these were really, really stiff!
They started to move about a mm but remained very stiff and I simply don't want to go any further in case i damage something. The force this hydraulic puller puts out is a lot!
Pete the bottom line is I'm getting quite scared now and reluctant to continue in case something breaks.

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