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Gtir Motorsport club » Tech room » Gearbox section » Pete (the box slayer) rebuild

Pete (the box slayer) rebuild

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51Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 26th July 2016, 10:10 pm

mreguest

mreguest
Neil
Three springy things are coming your way. Posted 1st class signed for today.
Good luck with it all!

52Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 27th July 2016, 12:35 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
That's great, thanks
Very Happy

53Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 11:48 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
So Stu's OEM 4th gear arrived which means i can compare it with the PAR. Thanks Stu  Very Happy
I measured the hub thickness as follows;
PAR=25.715, 25.712, 25.716, 25.713
OEM=25.711, 25.705, 25.700
so the max difference between them is only 15um, which is good.  Smile

Then i measured the width from the synchro face to the hub face

OEM=21.27
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2067

PAR=20.80  Shocked
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2068

So the PAR gear is undersized by almost 0.5mm.
This explains why it's synchro clearance was 0.5mm out of spec.

So what do we chaps?
1. send it back to PAR,
2. fit anyway and hope for the best,
3. shim it somehow
anyone?



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 30th July 2016, 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total

54Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 1:21 pm

mreguest

mreguest
I don't really get what you are measuring there, but surely step one is to explain your findings to par and ask their opinion. What would they do about it?

55Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 3:37 pm

ducie54

ducie54
Ring PAR and ask them to measure any spares they have in stock, no point sending it back if there all the same. I would also find another Nissan one to measure. Internal gears may have changed in design slightly when they changed housings

56Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 3:58 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
If you look back at page 2 theres a post where ive checked the synchro clearance of 4th gear after fitting it onto the input shaft.
As i stated in that post, nominal spec should be 0.4mm, but actual clearance was 1mm, eg 0.6mm too big.
So, is it the gear width or the shaft gap thats wrong?
Today i measured the PAR gear and synchro face was 0.5mm undersize which conclusevly shows its an error with the PAR gear, not the shaft.
Casing would have no influence on this clearance, because its only between gear and shaft.
PAR are in Australia so phoning them is a challenge.
Its up to Pete what to do next, all i can do is show the options.



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 30th July 2016, 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total

57Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 4:18 pm

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
speak with par and get their nominal sizes for 4th .
have you measured gear contact to contact surface directly ?
have you tried stu's oem gear on shaft to confirm it reduces clearance to oem thrust shimming range ?
Also like ducie suggests, measuring at least another oem 4th would be good .
Not ideal scenario, custom thrust could be option but if par can supply a gear better sized it would be best .

58Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 7:25 pm

ducie54

ducie54
What I was getting at is parts get superseded so not all Nissan 4th gears maybe the same. If Nissan changed to a stronger case during the gtir life span they could have also made a gear design change. Only PAR would be able to tell you what size the were meant to be.

59Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 8:22 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
from my experience of transmission design, once its released, any subsequent changes would be interchangeable.
In the rare cases were this cant be done, the new part would be designed in such a way were it could not be physically fitted with the old assembly.
Also according to Nissan parts website, there is only one part number for this gear.
Still, worth checking out and confirming tho. Im not a specialist in the R transmission and nothing would surprise me.

60Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 28th July 2016, 8:35 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
@Mr B wrote:speak with par and get their nominal sizes for 4th .
have you measured gear contact to contact surface directly ?
have you tried stu's oem gear on shaft to confirm it reduces clearance to oem thrust shimming range ?
Also like ducie suggests, measuring at least another oem 4th would be good .
Not ideal scenario, custom thrust could be option but if par can supply a gear better sized it would be best .

I spoke with Pete and he's going to bat this back in PARs court.
I dont understand what you mean by contact to contact surface?
I used micrometers to measure the direct gear hub width, eg the distance between the 2 faces that locate it axially, they were spot on as i stated in the earlier post.
So at least the gear sits in the correct location snd shouldn't foul anything.
It just means the shift engagement/disengagement has an extra 0.5mm travel on top of everything else.

Ill happily measure another 4th if someone will send me one??
Smile

61Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 29th July 2016, 6:01 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
If the gear width contact to contact measured & spot on then it not par 4th causing excess float.
The gear cone & gear baulk ring/syncro face won't effect shaft float of gear .
I suspect gear baulk ring/syncro face maybe set less on purpose to create more engagement delay/baulk ring life by par (check other gears & get specs from par)
Is the syncro hub axial faces worn as that will cause excess float . par input shaft needs measuring/checking also.
Custom thrust washer will be easy way set float correct if nothing else found out of tolerance or replaceable .

2 big headaches you got is working with parts that heavily used through failed boxes and fact PARd on't supply a spec sheet or fitting notes with the kits or even have it as a pdf online :-/
not that other gearkit makers are any different !

62Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 29th July 2016, 8:55 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
@Mr B wrote:If the gear width contact to contact measured & spot on then it not par 4th causing excess float.
The gear cone & gear baulk ring/syncro face won't effect shaft float of gear .
Totally agree. In the manual two inspections are done on 4th.
1. Axial float is out of spec, but gear hb width which as i've stated a few times is spot on,
2, 4ths synchro face clearance with the shaft hub, which is out by 0.6mm


I suspect gear baulk ring/syncro face maybe set  less on purpose to create more engagement delay/baulk ring life by par (check other gears & get specs from par)
Really? So PAR should know that this results in assembly specs not being met?

Is the syncro hub axial faces worn as that will cause excess float . par input shaft needs measuring/checking also.
No wear at all on any faces, they all looked barely run in.
Custom thrust washer will be easy way set float correct if nothing else found out of tolerance or replaceable
But if this done on purpose by PAR, why should we shim it?


2 big headaches you got is working with parts that heavily used through failed boxes and fact PARd on't supply a spec sheet or fitting notes with the kits or even have it as a pdf online :-/
not that other gearkit makers are any different !

Agree that the PAR support is SHIT! Evil or Very Mad



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 30th July 2016, 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total

63Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 29th July 2016, 9:14 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
I read 4th float out of spec .
Only thing I can see off by half mil is gear synro teeth face .
What measures you get with Stu's gear on the par input shaft . Do other par gears have same offset of measure !

64Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 29th July 2016, 9:23 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
@Cosmic73 wrote:Started the input shaft rebuild this morning using a small amount of MPZ lube on all friction surfaces.
3rd input gear assembled, endplay was 0.23 - 0.254 around the gear. Spec states 0.23-0.43 so it's well in even with the 0.025 run-out error.
Snap ring groove clearance less than 0.1mm so all fine.
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2064

Went on to assemble 4th and it's a different story .
Endplay 0.99mm!! Spec states 0.25-0.55,
Groove clearance 0.178!! Spec states 0.00-0.06
So Pete you need a new and thicker thrust washer. I'll measure the one you have at work next week and work out the size you need.
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2065

65Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 29th July 2016, 10:10 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
@Mr B wrote:I read 4th float out of spec .
Only thing I can see off by half mil is gear synro teeth face .
What measures you get with Stu's gear on the par input shaft . Do other par gears have same offset of measure !

fair point, i should have worded it clearance not endplay, Embarassed

66Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 29th July 2016, 11:14 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
@mreguest wrote:Neil
Three springy things are coming your way. Posted 1st class signed for today.
Good luck with it all!

They arrived yesterday mate, thanks.
It turns out this was a really good call bringing this to our attention!
I've give you a rep point mate  Very Happy
As shown below Pete's were rusty which is bad enough, but if you focus in on the right, its' snapped a bit off  Shocked
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2069

67Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 30th July 2016, 10:46 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
I fitted Stu's stock 4th,
Synchro clearance was 0.533mm so in spec
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2070

Measured gear float, 0.127
Out if spec still, but a lot less than PAR
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2071

68Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 30th July 2016, 11:36 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
@Mr B wrote:I read 4th float out of spec .
Only thing I can see off by half mil is gear synro teeth face .
What measures you get with Stu's gear on the par input shaft . Do other par gears have same offset of measure !

I've edited some of my posts to clarify that i was on about syncro clearance and then gear float.
I had a banging headache when i wrote it and couldnt think straight at the time.

69Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 30th July 2016, 5:41 pm

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
Have to see what info can get from par on gear measures and if all close to stock or changes on the gear syncro face. If concludes to be out of spec then have be sent back for them confirm and send replacement. certainly looks likely gear axial contact face width is less too .
is a pain when quite large values out of spec, I could see some design reasons for increasing baulk ring to gear syncro face gap but would expect find a matching pattern on other gears .
Main reason why gearkits need so much checking as not like working with oem stuff.
Reason why most run of mill box builders don't check much is ignorance is bliss & job jobbed in half a day as no spec data needs be found & no time spent measuring & rectifying off tolerances  ...
pdf on the input shaft below just so build data on tap for others searching threads:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Ub2apq5-pfRXBLSjJmV2oxMHc/view

70Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 31st July 2016, 10:06 am

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Thought i'd get Pete's 2nd (spare) casing stripped and prepared for the forthcoming re-assembly,
It was minging and loads of shrapnel came out from failure number XXVI  Shocked
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Image13
The inner striker rod boot was missing and needs replaced which means the rod yoke had to be removed which is a twat of a job.
Its double pinned and then the yoke had to be heated up to release its tight grip.  Evil or Very Mad
Good news is that i managed to keep the outer boot insulated from the heat and this can be reused!  Very Happy

Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Image14

I removed the input and output oils seals (which will need replacing),  also the mainshaft outer race and the 5th/reverse lock mechanism so its ready for its deepclean.
Due to the amount of debris its not something im prepared to do because i think it needs a proper power wash to get into all the nooks and crannies and blast as much of this shit out as possible.
Ill drop it off at a local engineering works who can do this.

71Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 31st July 2016, 10:29 am

burrows1980

burrows1980
^ thats how i did mine, heated up with map gas, popped out easy. I didnt realise there was two roll pins Laughing i was going to machine a pin to replace the roll pins, but couldnt be arsed!

72Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 15th August 2016, 5:25 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Collected the casings from the engineers today after their steam clean. All debris gone and looking much cleaner.
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2084
Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Img_2083

73Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 15th August 2016, 6:34 pm

nomad

nomad
Admin
Admin
Looks good just need to polish it now Laughing


_________________
"Official post whore" and all round superhero....

74Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 15th August 2016, 9:11 pm

gtir_woody

gtir_woody
moderator
moderator
Won't be any grubby filth that will cause you problems now Laughing

75Pete (the box slayer) rebuild - Page 3 Empty Re: Pete (the box slayer) rebuild on 15th August 2016, 9:33 pm

shroom

shroom
@gtir_woody wrote:Won't be any grubby filth that will cause you problems now Laughing

You forget Pete is still driving it! Grubby filthy honda owner

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