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Gtir Motorsport club » General Discusion » Gtir related Discussion » crimping v soldered joints...... (very interesting)

crimping v soldered joints...... (very interesting)

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GTI-R US

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Management
Management
Heres some good useful info here guys

Now I have always been under the impression that a good heat shrinked soldered joint was far better than any crimp or any elecrical type connecter on the market which i think is the majority view unless im mistaken. My reasoning for this is mainly due to resistance changes in wiring caused by a cumbersome joint..... far less with a well done in-line soldered joint with soldered joint, also a soldered joint i thought was far stronger than any other joint (especially crimped joints) which have a habit of quickly becoming un-crimped at the first tug of a wire.
So where ever possible i have always soldered and heat shrinked joints

But clearly i am very wrong with this so in future will be doing as suggested below.....

very useful reading for you Wink











By Andre Simon

Did you know solder is NEVER used in a professional motorsport wiring harness?
Did you know that a properly executed crimp joint is actually far stronger than the base wire?

That means if you pull on a crimped joint until it fails, the conductor strands will break before the crimp fails. Doing it right starts with the correct materials - In this case a Deutsch Autosport79 position bulkhead connector, gold plated terminals and 22 AWG tefzel wire.

Just as important are the correct tools - In this case a dmc crimp tool with the correct positioner to suit the terminals used. A proper crimp starts with correctly stripping the insulation without damaging the conductor strands underneath. This is harder than it sounds with the tough insulation on #mil spec wire. The insulation should be stripped far enough that 1-2 mm of bare conductor is left exposed when the wire is fully seated in the terminal (as shown).
This makes it easy to confirm the wire is fully engaged in the terminal and eliminates any potential stress on the conductor from the insulation butting against the back of the terminal. Correct engagement can also be confirmed by checking the conductor is visible in the circular inspection window in the terminal. Next the crimp can be performed. The DMC crimp tools use a set of mechanical jaws to precisely crimp the terminal in exactly the right place and to exactly the right depth as over-crimping a terminal is just as bad as under-crimping it. Now let's talk about soldered joints.....


soldered joint
Correctly applied, a solder joint can be strong and offer excellent conductivity, but a solder joint is also brittle and is prone to failure under continual vibration. Whilst executing the soldered joint correctly you will also require the use of heat which in its very own nature will give varying resistances in the jointed wire - HEAT, VIBRATION Exactly the conditions we can expect in the harsh world of a race car & general motorsport environment.
This is why we and many others connected with motorsport will avoid soldered joints at all costs in situations where reliability is critical.


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nomad

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Very intresting ive always soldered joint where i can as thought this was the best method think il look at the suggested products for near future as crimping is most of the time far quicker also ...


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Stu

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What about twist and tape? Laughing

No seriously tho that's some good info there Smile


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joetheeskimo

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I work in the design office for aerospace sensor products and its it recognised that crimp is better than a solder joint.

With solder joints you also have the affect of flux used that can be corrosive if not properly cleaned.
Also the issue with solder joints for connections is to much heat being applied and damaging the mechanical properties of the cable its self.
Wire solder joints are ok but you need adequate strain relief to avoid any failure modes attributed to vibration.

johnboy

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Interesting, although I think if Nissan used #Mil spec wire in their looms, then I might worry a bit more about it. I think for adding to or repairing the sort of wiring in the average car, soldering is OK, and it can be tied back in to the loom more neatly than a collection of crimp connectors..

And I've just bought a new soldering iron - so I have to get some use out of it. Smile

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
I never had issue or failures from soldering, joints neater and easier weather seal.
Both have there place and both very useful and reliable when done well.
Main reason crimps got bad image is due to the cheap £1 shop crimps and poor crimp tools and using wrong sizes for wire gauge. Good crimps and tools as used in industry and motorsport are not cheap .
Soldering tends cause problems when greasy oil in the wire or people use loads of solder making short length brittle or flux saturated and cooking the insulation .
I done car and full bike looms and mainly soldered fittings and sealed with shrink and pu40 and always been perfect continuity, reliable neat & weather resistant. Cat1 alarms are mainly soldered as part of the standards.

johnny gtir

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moderator
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Read my post to shroom. A solder joint done right is good but harder than you think to do right. If crimps are good enough for 240v plus there good for 12v
B makes a valid point as with electrics rule of thumb is you get what you pay for. (Not always tho)

ducie54

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Use good quality joiners like Molex and the wire will break before the joint.

Gostek

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As far as I'm aware there is no solder in factory car loom everything is crimped ... I always use crimp joints with heat shrink anyway cos I can't solder to save my life lol


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pulsarmoley

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I've always crimped and the hybrid electric stuff I work on is all crimped but an interesting read


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gtir_woody

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Good thread, makes me think twice about soldering now Laughing

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
I wouldn't think too much about it.
how many solder joints you had fail. personally I never had 1 .
If you installing wiring so it flexing/fatiguing at the joint then it installed wrong rather than joining technique wrong .
Both crimps and solder are good when done well, you have a lot of things that can be achieved with solder that can not be done with crimps. I've used solder on everything from an automated factory machine to a helicopter.
If you look at motorsport/aviation crimping tools and crimps you will see why so good as cost is massive, lot of marine engineers prefer solder due to easier weather sealing . Use what method suites job and available equipment as most important part is doing it to good standard what ever method used .

mc_hawkings24


Good post mr b. I have read the post and i can understand why soldering if done incorrectly can go fail but done correctly it should be fine and tinning wire first really helps. How many of us actually go rallying day in day out to necessitate buying motorsport crimping tools to join a few wires?

If making a loom from scratch then crimping is the way forward as it's alot quicker.

johnny gtir

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moderator
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Trouble we have tho is your soldering a 20 year plus loom and if your not the best and hold the iron on to long your damaging the wire/sheath as the heat travels up it. And getting in to heat shrink it.

Buy the best you can afford with either method inc heat shrink solder or crimps and take your time
Don't do it if your not confident as it will fail and depending what it is can be dangerous, damage something else melt more of the loom not just where you think you have done the work even short Ecu out. (Not cheap fix)

I have seen some shit butchering of wires on many R's

gtir_woody

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moderator
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I'm not a pro but I just take my time and the solders turn out good. Use good products and think about what you are doing before you start Smile

Stu wrote:What about twist and tape? Laughing

I put my hand up and say I did twist and tape jobs back in the day, never had any problems Laughing

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
Lol
twist and tape is used on house electrics here by so called electricians, you should of seen wiring in my house, not one junction box :-O
Soldering for repairs on cars etc works fine if use good rosin solder & adhesive lined heat shrink applied with air nozzle.
Do see some horror wiring though lol, whether crimp, solder, scotch or screw blocks or paper clips :-)

ADSgtir


Solder joints used to be used in aviation , the older connectors used to be mostly solder pins , this changed in the 70s and the wiring went to crimp terminals and pins .
You do get a better joint and more consistent joint , crimp tools have dropped in price but are still expensive , all the Motorsport stuff is actually aircraft stuff .
Soldering was never done with a mains soldering iron and not recommended today with cheap Chinese irons : the reason was mains isolation , the iron was powered by a separate control box with temp control - it prevents mains 240 getting into the iron tip and thus sending mains voltage or some ac volts feeding the wire you are soldering - not good for electronic circuits on that wire !!
Cheap mains irons do exactly that !!
The other issue was solder rosin being carcinogenic and prolonged soldering causing cancer , health and safety got involved .
Mostly OK to solder on cars , but not near ECU circuits especially with mains irons .

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