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Gtir Motorsport club » Tech room » Help and Advice » Ignition upgrades?

Ignition upgrades?

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1 Ignition upgrades? on 26th November 2016, 7:30 pm

DRC

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Hello guys another question .

I'm looking at upgrading the ignition system on the R . Only reason is that on the dyno when we up'edthe boost the plugs lost there punch and we had to close the gap to bring it back in line .65mm I think ?

I was wondering what could be done to upgrade the system with out adding individual coil packs.
I.e. Better plugs , leads , coil, inline capacitors ( lol) etc.
Just wondered what they high boosting guys use on there engines .

Thanks

2 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 1:20 am

splmum

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One small thing you can do to help with ignition is to "index" your spark plugs.
Before installing spark plugs, use a marker pen to mark a line up the insulator to show the position of the spark plug grounding electrode (the bent arm bit).
Install the plugs and see where the marker pen line is, it is best if the line is facing towards the inlet (and better if between, in the middle of the inlet valves), as this will keep the rich fuel mixture from flooding the centre sparking electrode.
Indexing can be done several ways:
One way is to get a bunch of spark plugs, mark them all on the insulator and test fit them for position. Use the plugs that line up correctly with the inlets and evenly across all 4 cylinders.
The other way is to use 'indexing washers', these space the plugs, allowing the electrode to face the correct way. NOTE: This method will change the depth of the plugs in the cylinder by whatever the thickness of the washer is in comparison to the other plugs. That is: all 4 plugs will probably be at different depths due to the difference between each washer thickness.
The benefits of indexing are minimal but if you want perfection, this is one factor.

3 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 9:39 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
Indexing is a good tip, don't see it done much .
Upgrade roots for standard ecu are limited, standard ignition is good if in top condition so many can get away with new oem coil and leads . oem leads being best match to oem coil and amp.
oem probably close to limit of constant good results once over 1.7bar
some options:
hks twin power module (they do one for distributor ign, not specific gtir kit though)
msd or crane etc coil and amp kits.
None are cheap, making most of oem system is cheapest, hks is a tidy bit of kit and does work.

4 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 9:50 am

ducie54

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Have a look at the MSD 6aL and blaster coil. There pretty cheap second hand.

And can also remove the factory transistor which normally gets effective by heat.

5 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 5:19 pm

shroom

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I have a hks one I brought off bob many moons ago but never used it. Must have been removed from an R. I will dig it out if you want as would sell it cheap.

6 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 5:52 pm

kevmc76

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Looking for some advice on this too, I will be using the EMU ECU and i don't really want to wire it back to the distributor, Was looking to go for a coil pack but was wondering what everyone uses or recommends.

7 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 6:58 pm

Gostek

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Events Organiser
Events Organiser
@kevmc76 wrote:Looking for some advice on this too, I will be using the EMU ECU and i don't really want to wire it back to the distributor, Was looking to go for a coil pack but was wondering what everyone uses or recommends.

With emu you can run separated coils mate only for this you might need to put crank sensor. I'm quite interested in EMU myself let us know of progress mate.
Anyway if you're on facebook there is a group called ECUMaster Tuning and Tips they might help too


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8 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 27th November 2016, 9:40 pm

pulsarmoley

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moderator
moderator
@splmum wrote:One small thing you can do to help with ignition is to "index" your spark plugs.
Before installing spark plugs, use a marker pen to mark a line up the insulator to show the position of the spark plug grounding electrode (the bent arm bit).
Install the plugs and see where the marker pen line is, it is best if the line is facing towards the inlet (and better if between, in the middle of the inlet valves), as this will keep the rich fuel mixture from flooding the centre sparking electrode.
Indexing can be done several ways:
One way is to get a bunch of spark plugs, mark them all on the insulator and test fit them for position. Use the plugs that line up correctly with the inlets and evenly across all 4 cylinders.
The other way is to use 'indexing washers', these space the plugs, allowing the electrode to face the correct way.  NOTE: This method will change the depth of the plugs in the cylinder by whatever the thickness of the washer is in comparison to the other plugs.  That is: all 4 plugs will probably be at different depths due to the difference between each washer thickness.
The benefits of indexing are minimal but if you want perfection, this is one factor.

Never knew of this, good bit of info thumbsup


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9 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 8:48 am

gtir_woody

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moderator
moderator
IMO if you are at the stage of wanting to upgrade ignition, it might be beneficial to go an a full aftermarket ECU, you get the benefit of running multi-coil plus the added bonus of all the features an aftermarket ECU has.

10 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 3:18 pm

mike74

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wasn't Fusion Ed having a look at coil on plug conversion ages ago...or has that never been finished?

11 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 6:31 pm

johnny gtir

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moderator
moderator
Are this type of plug not ment to be a good upgrade
http://www.bike53.ru/images/catalog/7659786767789.jpg

12 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 6:55 pm

nomad

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Admin
Admin
What plugs are they johnny ????


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13 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 7:58 pm

DRC

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So i have lots of spark plugs coming and i intend to index a set and also side gap them . this will be stage one
next will be fit a HKS twin power ignition amplifier and see if this helps out . My areas of concerns are the car can be a real pig to start as it floods with fuel especially if i missed the first few seconds when cranking .
Second is "spark blow out" at high levels of boost, so instead of closing the plug gap right down why not turn up the "power.............."

Of course the plugs will need a close and careful eye casting over them to make sure all is well.

i will update my post when i have completed this .

14 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 8:22 pm

mike74

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TBH I've used NGK BCR8ES plugs gapped to 0.8mm in a few different engines without issue. Our engines seem to run fine with them in my experience, certainly no real need to go ott I don't think. You may just need to refresh your existing setup if it's never been touched before. I redid my ignition on my last R using stuff from this place:
http://www.ignitioncarparts.co.uk/
You may find you've got one or two tired components somewhere Smile

15 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 9:07 pm

DRC

avatar
Hi Mike, thanks for the link.
I only noticed the blow out on 1.7bar plus boost . Do you have a high boost application? . Also in answer to your earlier question Ed at fusion does the coil pack set up and this would be the best option but it looks costly and as i have a fairly good set up already i can't warrant changing everything out.

16 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 28th November 2016, 10:41 pm

mike74

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I used to run 1.4 bar so not quite as high as yours admittedly. Are you still running standard ignition or something different? If it floods sometimes when starting it I'd be inclined to think you've got an issue somewhere.
Have you checked the strength of the spark at all?

17 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 4th December 2016, 8:14 pm

DRC

avatar


Hi Mike my car runs a good spark up to about 1.5 bar this is when it starts to loose its punch (hence closing the gaps on the plugs (which does not help starting) the car floods when i turn it over and don't catch it with the accelerator on the firsts or second attempt. It runs SARD 1000cc injectors on stock fuel pressure so maybe turning down the fuel % at its lowest setting on the power FC would help with starting? i don't know and i am reluctant to fiddle with the map at all. Hence why the ignition booster.

so

I have not looked at the car as I am sat at work but thought I would ask which wires are the main positive and negative to the coil. I ask as I am fitting an ignition booster sometime soon.
I’m sure there are only 2 wires that run to the coil but which one is what.


Thanks in advance.

18 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 5th December 2016, 4:13 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
Might be worth thinking about 800cc injectors if not wanting much more than 500hp.
They would probably go to 550hp at sensible duty with an extra half bar pressure if needed.
Get a cc flow checked set marked per injector and fit highest cc flowing in hottest running cylinder.
you got the 'type distributor' (AK004) hks twin power ?

double check wiring via multimeter just be sure.

19 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 5th December 2016, 9:21 am

mike74

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is this any help?


It still sounds like you're trying to mask the issue by running a bigger coil though. If it struggles to start properly then there must be waaaay too much fuel  Sad



Last edited by mike74 on 5th December 2016, 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missing image?)

20 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 5th December 2016, 10:41 am

Mr B

avatar
gtir technician
gtir technician
I would think starting is fueling and idle valve/speed related map values to cold start - warm start .
Could be worth a quick check of your coolant sensor values to see ecu getting right range voltage for temps as old sensor and wiring can make them off a bit, if that okay then map adjustments and possibly downsize injectors could be idea. I wouldn't run 1,000cc unless going to 600hp or over, prefer run smaller and use 7 to 10psi extra pressure to keep duty sensible when at an in between injector size scenario and more so when road use car.

21 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 5th December 2016, 11:43 am

mike74

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I still can't see the picture I tried to attach to my last post....can anyone else see it or should I up/lower my med's?

22 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 5th December 2016, 11:51 am

Mr B

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gtir technician
gtir technician
^ I see it

23 Re: Ignition upgrades? on 5th December 2016, 12:32 pm

mike74

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cool, correct amount of medication taken then Very Happy

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