Gtir Motorsport club

Welcome to the largest Nissan Pulsar & Sunny GTI-R Forum. Masses of info, friendly members, cars for sale, lots of spares. Best forum on the net by far. Everything your gtir needs is here.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Gtir Motorsport club » General Discusion » Gtir related Discussion » Power problem

Power problem

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 3 of 6]

51 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 8:25 pm

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club
Hopefully somebody knows what the issue is then from what bob has said as I don't understand it all enough to guess what the issue is, so if some one does please shout up. I'm doing a boost test this weekend to hopefully eliminate that as a problem or even flag it up as being one? My afr gauge if anything is saying it's rich on full boost not lean? Bob can you point me in the right direction as to where I'm going wrong with this as I'm fed up with it. The just want the car running right

I've just read read and re read what bob has put,and all I can figure out from it is it's not holding boost and it's running lean.....am I right or wrong scratch

52 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 9:35 pm

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club


Not sure if this is of any help but it's the graph from when I first got the car mapped at the other tuners, boost is very consistent. And no mr b the car hasn't been mapped since the turbo was built

53 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 9:37 pm

Cosmic73

avatar
@johnny gtir wrote:I ain't going to pretend I fully understand it but bob showed me a lot and all I can say is if one of the best in U.K. Tells me his maps are very  good then that's enough for me and I have seen and been on the receiving end of the results and the car felt great throughout the full rev range and end figures were above I expected.
Second that, Dont know what he did to my R but it was transformed and been running sweet ever since.
Bob fanclub member 2,456 Very Happy

54 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 10:04 pm

johnny gtir

avatar
moderator
moderator
Pete that graph says 2871 ? Can you remember what I said to you ages ago when you watsapp me about this ?
Did I ask you about your mapper doing something which a lot don't bother with as it takes time



Last edited by johnny gtir on 16th February 2017, 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

55 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 10:14 pm

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club
Balls yea you're right, I'll dig out the next one with the 3071 on it Embarassed

56 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 10:16 pm

johnny gtir

avatar
moderator
moderator
Forget graph read above mate

57 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 10:33 pm

johnny gtir

avatar
moderator
moderator
Will write this again as off to bed soon doing long days. I was editing above when you replied about 2871.
Remember when you asked me ages ago and I said who was setting cams up? You watsapped/talked about adjustable pulleys and I said I had some. Never fitted them as most tuners to lazy to set them up

I write on the forum a lot of general stuff to keep it busy. I also know a lot or at least understand it but as Im rambling here or don't put into words as good as other members do so prob make mysel look stupid or as if I don't know.

One thing I do know is your car is getting into the wrong hands.
Your gearbox issues time and time again I told you I blame the builder soon as you use Neil (he takes his time methodically worked not a big head ) he picked up on lots of stuff inc lack of cleaning the box. I would of thrown a standard box though the previous builders window. He wasted lots of your cash.
Now looks like that mappers costing you a fortune for things I mentioned to you months ago and I am no expert but they have convinced you are right

58 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 10:41 pm

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club


This is the right one. Johnny I do understand what you're saying and I've learnt from my mistakes now ( I hope) the situation I'm on now is I can't afford to take the car far away as it just adds to the all ready spiralling cost so it's going to have to be some one local to me, I want to try and do some tests myself for piece of mind so I'm not being fed any shit. It's easy for people to say they have done this or done that and charge you for it but have they? At lest this way and asking questions I may be able to draw some of my own conclusions. The guy who mapped it near me did a good job on the map and he does in general on my mates cars as that's what he's known for, but anything else he just comes across as not arsed! First off I'll see if these tests reveal anything at the weekend and go from there

59 Re: Power problem on 16th February 2017, 10:49 pm

johnny gtir

avatar
moderator
moderator
I am giving you a big clue mate remember a while ago I asked about your cams and how tuners don't spend time as it requires taking rocker cover on and off while on dyno ?

I know your problem off that graph likes of bob or Couple of other already posted in this thread would word it better. I off to bed but will watsapp you quickly with couple things and explain my thinking on here

60 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 12:07 am

mike74

avatar
@ johnny: just looked at that graph, you reckoning the cams are too far advanced and ' going off' too soon?
Just wondering myself like as curious and nae sure

61 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 12:40 am

GTI-R US

avatar
Management
Management
Oooh Johnnys getting very warm, almost burning finger warm lol

What hes thinking is further endorsed by the dyno graph that Abbey gave you.........whom i must say (despite having less power / torque) is a far superior map to what the last lot did..............But hellooooo something has dratically changed since that Abbey map and not for the good either
now wonder what it could be ball age
Johnnys got the answer im sure.




And Johnny / Neil thanks for the compliments but im far from being the best at car tuning theres lots out there far better than i could ever hope to be,  but i do listen to what ''proper tuners'' teach me and i learn bits from them, then make my own mind up on what i believe to be righ
Just as Neil did with ypur gearbox Pete.
However what i have got on my side is years of experience working on cars dating back to late 70s early 80s 'so forgive me if i come across as being 'big headed twat' but i do know how an engines actually works and whats happening at any given time.
This then gives a big head start into fault diagnosing and tuning alike even though im new to the latter.

Tuning is much more than just pressing a few digits on a keyboard, but some it seems dont see it that way and think that because they are good with a pc and curcuit boards etc they have the god given right to call themselves tuners & charge what ever they like for doing as little as they possibly can.
Being a petrolhead who genuinely loves all cars it pisses me right off when these muppets try feed you bullshit many owners of cars arent idiots and do know what they are on about yet they still try & numb your brain with the crap they spill just so they can make a big sale.
And thats the reason ive now got involved with it, i refuse to accept the bullshit they feed you


_________________
                                GTI-R-US.CO.UK
                                    Nissan Pulsar Gti-R Specialists
                                            'In association with'
                           Torque Of The South Motorsport
             Dyno Developments 4wd rolling road & Performance Tuning Centre
                                          'Services provided'
Wheelchair conversions, Forged engine rebuilds, Dyno power runs & Ecu mapping, Dyno diagnostics, Sonic injector cleaning, Performance upgrades,
Full Race setup's, Servicing, Mot's, Restorations, conversions, fabrication, Worlds largest stockist of quality used parts for Gtir
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

62 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 7:06 am

Mr B

avatar
gtir technician
gtir technician
valve timing not been optimized on dyno run, changed once then left as too much trouble do again .

63 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 9:27 am

ducie54

avatar
Now lets do a graph compare and some rethinking. Now understand one dyno from another is not going going to give the same results.

I may have not have had the same experience as some but i have a fair understanding, lets look at the results. Looking at the map in the section where boost is the very similar in the lower RPM it can be easily seen that changing the cam timing has made an improvement. 30 Foot pound and 20 Hp are IMO good gains at 3000 rpm. From 5000 Rpm and above where the boost curve is the same it can be seen which graph shows the best results. Changing the cam timing is going to give you more response OR more top end, you cant have both.

That boost spike was from the Boost duty not being reduced after the cam gear adjustment (I take it you have another controller for that) I see a similar spike in mine when i switch the Exhaust cam, the greater gas flow needs the wastegate DC to be reduced.

I understand that not everyone in the UK gets along and im not here to shit stir. Im just sharing my opinion and knowledge that's all.

Any time you take your car to the dyno there needs to be a plan of what you expect him to do and not do that way you don't get a nasty bill. IMO its not the tuner's job to work out why the engine is not making power. He tunes the ECU to its limitations. Tuning the fuel to a number and the ignition to either MBT or a safety margin if the motor is knock limited is not rocket science. It is his job to inform you that there is a issue and may need further attention.

Sorry but IMO if you go back with just a intercooler change i don't reckon you will get what your after. If you change the cams back to zero you will go backwards. You can spend time and money testing the cam position is several position but the results may only be small for the cost involved. The fuel side of things does need some TLC tho.

64 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 9:38 am

Mr B

avatar
gtir technician
gtir technician
What cams is it using ?

65 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 9:51 am

johnny gtir

avatar
moderator
moderator
Yes mr B and as I told pete a while ago but he told me what he was told they had been dialed in properly. Also check boost so to me it's the gate or even simpler the gain needs tweaking to hold peak. Again from my experience with avcr can be time consuming to get perfect. ( lazy mappers ain't got time. Or tight customer not paying for mappers time) prob the first
Other thing is furling on the grap is out abit that could be something or nothing I ain't fully thought them through. injectors are 700cc standard Reg
Just spoke to pete says cams are standard
Don't take this wrong pete mate your doing as most would listening to what your told by the person doing the work but it's costing you a fortune for very little answers or gains. Then there sending you out the door with shoddy gearbox. Problems with restrictions on the car but not helping solve them and then your back throwing more cash or there expecting a massive wad of cash from you as they have you as a customer

66 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 9:51 am

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club
Its standard cams but with piper vernier pully mr b. Ducie I appreciate your input massively, how ever i take my car to a tuner and say 'my car won't make any more power can you sort it out' I expect them to as that's what I'm paying them for, I'm no mechanic. I did ask at the time if the fueling was a problem and was told it wasn't.....

67 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 9:56 am

johnny gtir

avatar
moderator
moderator
Agree massively above and there you go that man has put my thinking into words
I also have no beef with people but when your spending money on a expert you hope they at least advise the way forward

Bob might be a mate but I lick no fookers arse and the time he puts in is second to none and that alone is worth my money I got burned not long ago by pro tuner he turned up 2 hours late for a start and it was booked for 10 am not as if it was early

68 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 10:35 am

ADSgtir


You are dropping boost , that is your main clue - where from is the question .
Maybe it's external pipes etc , maybe it via wastegate such as Spring pressure wrong , maybe its internal across intake to exhaust valves (overlap of valves out ) .maybe it's the controller /solenoid . Maybe it's all of them .
One by one you check them all - this way you know that things are good , this helps in the future as its a base starting point . Then sorry you need to go back to a dyno and spend more dollar - you then get a base run done from where you compare all future runs . Boost timing and fuelling .
DIY is possible but you need certain items of equipment like a compressor , now you can blank off pipes with an aluminium blank and use a blank with an airline adaptor , connect a turner guage ( pressure guage in normal speak) slowly pressure up to 2 bar and get all soapy - lol , listen /look and feel for leaks .
Pressure the wastegate , again with guage and check the spring pressure that the wastegate cracks open at , all these things any tuner worth 3p can and should do , they have the gear available , it's also a good thing to use a laser spot temp gun , these are cheap as chips nowadays (£40 ) , but allow you to check live temps all around the engine very accurately , pipe temps , exhaust , inlet , intercooler in /out , radiator , they show all types of leaks blockages , overheat etc and it takes only a few mins .
I know you are trying to not spend more dollar , but you just have to bite the bullet sometimes , and spend wisely , this is from a professional bullet biter with a massive history of unwise spending - lol
I've been had over by the best , at one point I thought I must nave MUG tattoo d on my forehead ..

69 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 12:02 pm

Mr B

avatar
gtir technician
gtir technician
Is dropping more boost after last tune so likely cam timing changes linked to that unless other changes been made (state of turbo also consideration as pre rebuild)
Load of checks and test like adsgtir pointing out all good as saves hassle for tuner and more chance get result you want in one go rather than coming away to make physical changes then back on dyno for another run.
Only real 3 parts that could be better is cams cooler and injectors, cams could be worth the effort and cost, more so if aiming at mainly track use although standard cams are pretty good. cooler you got should get job done but core flow area is quite small, injectors will likely want more base fuel pressure to boost to keep duty sensible if get into high 400s but they will do it if pump good one .
If all else good with boost and control it all down to tuner make most of package, I would be inclined give Bob a go, I think you got more chance get value for money and good result as he got enthusiasm and wants the results and recognition more than the money probably, plus as a forum member he highly unlikely want feed you a load of bull or let you out door with poor map.
Sometimes enthusiasm and effort worth more than reputation and claimed knowledge, Your professional gearbox builder was grade A useless twat (actually leaving parts out of box knowingly), Cosmic took it on in not best of rebuild scenarios and between enthusiasm, care, Questions, knowledge done far better job .
You got be super careful as most of the so called top tuners are useless, lazy or both and like quick tuning route as makes them lot more money and easier work.
Looking at your billing form you did ask you power restriction be looked at, he didn't give you much final advice or do many tests help you out for his charge,
basically just telling you cooler upgrade maybe help, didn't point out boost holding would help or fueling afr not best after torque peak, and that supposedly best gtir tuner in UK !
I don't live in UK so I got no beef in UK user arguments but don't think fusion would be my first choice if I was a uk R owner .

70 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 5:41 pm

GTI-R US

avatar
Management
Management
ok ive got 20 mins spare so am gonna help you out with this Pete so whether you take my advice or not is up to you fella!
I could haver that car sorted and running as it should be in less than a day (bold statement) im 99% sure i know what the probs are.
My services with this one are a no go however for certain reasons im sure youll understand. I would however get no kicks out of seeing your engine go pop (which i guarantee it will) with the way its currently been de-modded with the setup it now has.

Everyone are on the right lines but still no cherry  Smile

So heres what you need to do and unless your capable of doing this work yourself i suggest you take the car to someone who actually knows what they are doing as opposed to a hit n miss merchant.

First off

1) Cams & timing
Assuming these are stock cams as you pointed out, why on earth have they been dialled in to around two and a half times amount of degrees over standard spec fitted to stock sprockets  scratch
That is madness.
He does not say as such whether cams have been advanced or retarded but lets assume 'advanced' which will in turn bring valve overlap in earlier which results in increased bottom end power but will make them very mediocre from mid range upwards where car would not acheive your requested TOP END POWER!

Altering the cam timing requires much more than  ''il advance it to say **** degrees'' the engine modifications, turbo size and everything regarding the spec needs to be taken into consideration which it clearly was not in your case, and this is the Main reason why your torque has increased yet power / bhp remains the same even though boost pressure has been raised to over 2bar. Even with an approximate figure for degreeing cams it takes best part of a day with taking rc on and off to get the best setting for the car being tuned as no two cars will be the same, everything needs to be taken into consideration and that goes back to the initial engine build.

2) Boost
As some have pointed out..........your boost controller is incorrectly set with the gain-set gain so boost is spiking at above 2 bar then tailing off rather sharply to just above 1.6bar. That is a charachteristic of a boost spike, in other words boost will tail off quickly because it has spiked.

3) Air fuel ratio
Peak power is at around 4500rpm to which afr's are good but move along the chart to 4800rpm then look how afrs leans off hugely......at that point the power also starts to drop yet boost is still fairly stable at around 1.85-1.9bar with torque continuing to rise. The result is an afr chart between 4800-6000 in excess of 12.5 on full boost with torque continuing to climb.
And that is whats going to kill your engine eventually.......The afr line should continue to drop to around low 11s. I would take a bet that your engine is detting like fook above 5000rpm with the given torque
All points toward incorrect cam timing!
Engine speed coupled with Ignition advance & Boost pressure is what increases torque. So boost can be ruled out as a culprit as its clearly tailing off yet torque is still rising with engine speed...........points again to cam timing being out


The map that Abbey did backed up with their graph looks far better in every area.
Torque is in relation to power and a steady yet slight tailing off boost line which is fine.

Max power being 406bhp was acheived at just over 1.7bar not over 2bar with the ropey tune map
So had they raised boost to the same 2 bar what figures would you have seen then i wonder!!!

As someone pointed out, you may need to possibly raise base fuel pressure with injectors you have fitted but i would not do anything until that timing issue is corrected as it will make a big difference to fuelling also

And that concludes my findings even though ive never even looked at your car  Laughing  british

If it were me in your boots i would take it back to Abbey Motorsport to sort out, grovel, crawl and say a mate of yours had fooked about with the timing etc and boogered the lot up so could you kindly sort it out lol


_________________
                                GTI-R-US.CO.UK
                                    Nissan Pulsar Gti-R Specialists
                                            'In association with'
                           Torque Of The South Motorsport
             Dyno Developments 4wd rolling road & Performance Tuning Centre
                                          'Services provided'
Wheelchair conversions, Forged engine rebuilds, Dyno power runs & Ecu mapping, Dyno diagnostics, Sonic injector cleaning, Performance upgrades,
Full Race setup's, Servicing, Mot's, Restorations, conversions, fabrication, Worlds largest stockist of quality used parts for Gtir
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

71 Re: Power problem on 17th February 2017, 8:52 pm

Mr B

avatar
gtir technician
gtir technician
seems you got some new verniers and cam timing a likely mess I would be inclined spend some hard earned on some decent bump sticks as they definatly give good bit power for the buck and make most of fact rocker will be off to doodle with vernier pulleys anyway plus could work well with your big tub and desired ultimate greedy power goal:-D
I like the Tomei 260 12mm lift (good all rounder), they sensible $ too (in world of cam pricing range) and can give easy power gain and good with bigger tubs as good low end helping boost come in and extra valve lift will make most of the big tubs big boost high end .
Add an adjustable fpr as you may need another half bar or more fuel pressure keep your 700's in sensible duty if does start making the power.
Cooler more a waste of money luxury expense as looks likely forge do what you want even if not technically ideal core sizing, plus you done some good work on pipe runs so be nice let that prove itself .
Give tuner parts tell them want cams dialed in on roller and tell them current map shows fuel lean and boost need some tweaks as dropping off and you desire numbers over 450 in torque and hp, don't be shy boosting it as long afr stays spot on .
If all else is good with port work and wastegate layout injector duty should be first thing limit tuning, standard manifolds can have issues on boost control and reversion though pending how wastegate fitted and effort on porting as needs weld filling in the recess to allow best porting effort .
In right hands with right approach should get what you want easily .

72 Re: Power problem on 18th February 2017, 7:45 pm

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club
Well it looks like the actual problem has been found!!
With the help of a friend we hooked up a boost leak test kit and started form the connection from the out side of the intercooler where it connects to the pipe which runs into the intake, as soon as we started to pressurise it it sounded like air line wasn't even connected to anything the noise was that loud! The air was escaping from a large breather pipe that had a huge split all the way down the underside of it ( see pic)
So we replaced the pipe with a new piece and re did the test to once again here a huge leak!
Well not one but 2 vac pipes had split completely in 2 ( 2 of them)
So we re did the entire lot with new pipes and made sure it was all nivevans tight and re did the test including the intercooler right from the turbo and it was spot on, it held 2.5 bar with no problems as when before it wouldn't go over 1bar of pressure!!!!

So all the juicy air that should be going into my engine to make power was just escaping into atmosphere! We pressurised he actuator and that didn't open till around 1.5 bar!!

73 Re: Power problem on 18th February 2017, 8:28 pm

Gostek

avatar
Events Organiser
Events Organiser
Can your friend pop over to me and fix mine??


_________________

74 Re: Power problem on 18th February 2017, 8:32 pm

nomad

avatar
Admin
Admin
Nice one pete thumbsup least you found your boost issue .... now to sort the rest out lol


_________________
"Official post whore" and all round superhero....

75 Re: Power problem on 18th February 2017, 9:15 pm

PartyPete

avatar
the one star club
the one star club
@Gostek wrote:Can your friend pop over to me and fix mine??

Ha I doubt it mate, I think wiring and ecus are beyond him!

Sponsored content


View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 3 of 6]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum