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Gtir Motorsport club » Tech room » Help and Advice » Help!

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226Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 19th June 2016, 5:37 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
I can imagine, this is all very new to me, never really had any knowledge at all of internal workings of a gear box and didn't realise how precisely they have to be set up (shimming etc) I've learnt the hard way with this,I'll email pair and see what the damage is going to be. Once I've spoken to the gearbox guy I'll put up his response on here.

227Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 19th June 2016, 5:48 pm

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
surprising what you can get away with for average car runnint to shops etc,
Put 420ft lb in a box & intention of track use on a box that known not great at power handling then they got be best effort possible if want half decent working life from them .
shaft floats & preloads on the R box not overly hard setup, input float & diff preload quite easy measure, mainshaft preload is hardest & also most important be right.
Most of the failures with R boxes are bad rebuilds on total warn abused boxes, 15 years ago people had 400 to 450ft lb on standard boxes and they survived quite well in general. Good full effort with gearkit & they probably good for around 600ft lb and more but lifespans won't be great & dragging will always see some transmission failures as it part of the sport ...

228Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 19th June 2016, 7:46 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
@PartyPete wrote:
@Mr B wrote:^ So what happened before with no reverse !
Do remember a comment about people like pushing him manually back into parking spots but don't know the story behind that lol . sound like fun though :-)

indeed the stress & hassle is probably worse than the money but I hate seeing useless cunts take money for shit work, especially if bragging be exceptional expert .
It good money & could of gone a long way in future work on car or been a start to Petes savings :-/ I would like punch them too, may send the misses with her kitchen knife, she more bad-ass than me .

When I had the box built up (before the par kit was fitted) it went into reverse once (bit of a struggle)  and then wouldn't go back into reverse again!!! So engine and box out again took it back to him, he told me it was a little Spring about the size of your finger nail that had snapped (not his fault apparantly) so he removed it as it was of no real use basically. Obviously he removed the whole bloody mechanism!!

If the spring broke, why didnt he order a new spring from Nissan and replace it?
Well, it certainly goes into reverse now, even while in 1st! lol!



Last edited by Cosmic73 on 20th June 2016, 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

229Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 19th June 2016, 8:04 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
Obviously I've been very naive with this, Embarassed alarm bells should have rung I guess, but knowing nothing about boxes and him being the 'professional' I left him with it

230Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 19th June 2016, 10:37 pm

GTi ARGHH


Hi Pete, sorry to chip in but I do understand your frustration fully.

I have been following this thread very closely as not only is it very interesting, I also have a PAR 1-4 gear kit. Some times I have been shitting it reading this but... That box bloke needs fucking shooting!!

Not going to harp on but I have ragged the fuck out of it with approx 400 torques and it loves it. In fact, when ever I get home I wonder if I will still have a licence in the next 14 days...

Also without Cosmic dont think any one would be any wiser, top bloke.

The two points to my post are:

1 Talking of cunts, a massive one to stay away from is The Gearbox Specialist in Boscombe Dorset. I paid a grand (no paper work to avoid VAT big mistake, never again) to get a standard one rebuilt. Now that was about 3years ago and cant remember the exact details (Bob can confirm Im sure) but they put the clutch in the wrong way around or some thing. I drove it and instantly knew it was not right. A heavy pedal? This was a fucking a joke. The gear stick was very very stiff and it was almost impossible to drive around town. Felt like my foot was gonna go through the floor. It also destroyed my new helix organic clutch kit in well under a 1000kms. Was not impressed..

I went back nicey nicey at first which quickly led to moaning like fuck and he couldnt of given a shit. THE ONLY THING they were prepared to do was for me to take the box to them and then they would charge me £250 just to strip it down. After lots of fucks and offs they knew how I felt and I KNOW he KNEW he fucked it up but what could I do? My mate wanted to smash him right up but I just threatened him with the local rag but nothing ever happen due to no receipt. Piss takers, honestly. Oh and I think theres another one opened since in Southampton, again just putting it out there. So personally I know its easy for me to say but try to KEEP THE PRESSURE ON HIM. Hes fucked it big time, more than once by the sound of it.

2 I was offered a straight cut 5th but declined. Now reading all the posts here makes me wish I did, but trust me, the noise is devastating after 60-100 miles, so the quiet 5th is a god send on longer journeys. With the ratios, I believe you can get custom ratios. I wanted longer but think its stock. But Bob reckons they could be shorter. Fuck knows, its not like you get much of a chance to watch the speedo is it?!


My advice is dont say too much on here what your plans are when it comes to getting it resolved with this clown. Im sure he is a nice guy etc etc (and will do and say anything to get out of handing over cash) and knows it all, but I dropped my guard when I thought I was dealing with "The Gearbox Specialist" and in the long run cost me a fucking packet. Dont do what I did and try to forget these wankers, at worst he should refund you. Like Johnny says if you do chuck the box through his window, make sure it lands on his fucking head as it might knock some sense into the twat. Wish I had pursued it now as pissing me off thinking about it all again.

Your car is awesome btw, dont give up as your so close! Glad I didnt now, but I came very close to selling up lots of times as had every cunt and his dog in my ear taking the piss, in-laws-money pit blah blah yawn!!!

Not normally one to post much, but Im on gear box number three and engine number three, third time lucky as they say. As I said had some tough times with my R but they really are the mutts nuts when they work properly.

Any ways, good luck with it all.

Lastly for the record, Bobs bloke up the road from him built my box and its still sweet as fuck.


Now that didnt take long and please excuse my language lol

231Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 4:59 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
^ just 1st to 4th kits are most versatile (sensible price too) and make it easier live with as road car, it still strong and can take good torque and abuse. sc fd and sc 5th are going be stronger and taking box to full sc set is best but it not needed if not on crazy power and indeed not ideal for those doing lot of road use with the car. Par seriously under rate the power handling so nothing much worry about besides building it proper.
I don't think current full par kit is far behind that of ppg. Par ratios are all standard but they do any custom ratio you want no extra charge and final drive can be tweaked too. Very good package option for affordable money really .

232Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 9:18 am

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
@GTi ARGHH wrote:Hi Pete, sorry to chip in but I do understand your frustration fully.

I have been following this thread very closely as not only is it very interesting, I also have a PAR 1-4 gear kit.  Some times I have been shitting it reading this but...  That box bloke needs fucking shooting!!

Not going to harp on but I have ragged the fuck out of it with approx 400 torques and it loves it.  In fact, when ever I get home I wonder if I will still have a licence in the next 14 days...

Also without Cosmic dont think any one would be any wiser, top bloke.

The two points to my post are:

1  Talking of cunts, a massive one to stay away from is The Gearbox Specialist in Boscombe Dorset.  I paid a grand (no paper work to avoid VAT big mistake, never again) to get a standard one rebuilt.  Now that was about 3years ago and cant remember the exact details (Bob can confirm Im sure) but they put the clutch in the wrong way around or some thing.  I drove it and instantly knew it was not right.  A heavy pedal?  This was a fucking a joke.  The gear stick was very very stiff and it was almost impossible to drive around town.  Felt like my foot was gonna go through the floor.  It also destroyed my new helix organic clutch kit in well under a 1000kms.  Was not impressed..

I went back nicey nicey at first which quickly led to moaning like fuck and he couldnt of given a shit.  THE ONLY THING  they were prepared to do was for me to take the box to them and then they would charge me £250 just to strip it down.  After lots of fucks and offs they knew how I felt and I KNOW he KNEW he fucked it up but what could I do?  My mate wanted to smash him right up but I just threatened him with the local rag but nothing ever happen due to no receipt.  Piss takers, honestly.  Oh and I think theres another one opened since in Southampton, again just putting it out there.  So personally I know its easy for me to say but try to KEEP THE PRESSURE ON HIM.  Hes fucked it big time, more than once by the sound of it.

2  I was offered a straight cut 5th but declined.  Now reading all the posts here makes me wish I did, but trust me, the noise is devastating after 60-100 miles, so the quiet 5th is a god send on longer journeys.  With the ratios, I believe you can get custom ratios.  I wanted longer but think its stock.  But Bob reckons they could be shorter.  Fuck knows, its not like you get much of a chance to watch the speedo is it?!


My advice is dont say too much on here what your plans are when it comes to getting it resolved with this clown.  Im sure he is a nice guy etc etc (and will do and say anything to get out of handing over cash) and knows it all, but I dropped my guard when I thought I was dealing with "The Gearbox Specialist" and in the long run cost me a fucking packet.  Dont do what I did and try to forget these wankers, at worst he should refund you.  Like Johnny says if you do chuck the box through his window, make sure it lands on his fucking head as it might knock some sense into the twat.  Wish I had pursued it now as pissing me off thinking about it all again.

Your car is awesome btw, dont give up as your so close!  Glad I didnt now, but I came very close to selling up lots of times as had every cunt and his dog in my ear taking the piss, in-laws-money pit blah blah yawn!!!

Not normally one to post much, but Im on gear box number three and engine number three, third time lucky as they say.  As I said had some tough times with my R but they really are the mutts nuts when they work properly.

Any ways, good luck with it all.

Lastly for the record, Bobs bloke up the road from him built my box and its still sweet as fuck.


Now that didnt take long and please excuse my language lol


It's good to know there are people out there running these kits with no issue and giving them decent abuse!
It looks as though you have had some serious troubles also in the past...who is this gearbox builder?
I'm going to ring him in a moment, not looking forwards to it!
As far as Neil goes I genuinely think I may have been stuffed with out him, he's gone out of his way to help me with this and for that I'm very grateful! Just shows you there are some Properly top blokes on this forum which helps to make this (in my opinion) the best forum by far!
As far as giving up goes I can assure you I have been extremely close a couple of times, as with anything it all boils down to money and that's what's got me down with this the most, the expense! But....I haven't given up yet! I'm sure once Neil had worked his magic on it I will have trouble free motoring for years to come (fingers crossed).
So watch this space, I'll update as much as possible with the progress, the outcome from 'the gear box professional' and once it's all built back up and running again!

233Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 11:22 am

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management
just to re-cap what Stu (gti arggh) said above


We had a lot of work to do on Stu's car........from engine rebuild right through to mapping the car after it had blown up after car was at another so called 'gtir specialists' who fitted and mapped his previous engine prior to it going bang shortly after collection of the car, but thats another story.

Now back to gearbox
We had the par box built by the gearbox company round corner from us (who carry out all our gearbox builds). Im capable of building stock gearboxes but was unsure on this due to precise clearances (i know are needed) but was told by Par themselves that no more than stock clearances are neccesary Suspect
So on that note we handed the job to our gearbox guys as they have far far more experience than myself in building all types of gearboxes. He asked us to find out the specific clearances needed in the build 'hence why i contacted par themselves' only to be given useless in fact worse than useless info regarding anything important to do with the build Rolling Eyes
So was then told by our gearbox builder that he would use clearances similar to those they had generally used with other straight cut builds from different cars and gear manufacturers (but was a guesstimate) which he was not overly happy with.
He also refused to use the (think it was ppg)  billet selector fork for 3rd / 4th as was way too short and poorly made.......so i went along and said fit the stock one although a billet one would have been far stronger you can only fit what you have been supplied with, this brought about the ones we have now had made up by a proper company (currently being fitted/tested to a race specification gearbox we are ourselves building).

Stu's car (touches wood) is so far proving that the entire build is all working as it should which is great news as the car made some good power on dyno (after run in period) so if anything had been wrong it would have gone bang long ago.

So in regards to Petes abortiion, i sincerely hope you get your money back (or at least part of it) as certainly seems down to piss poor work by previous builder. Im sure next build will be fine as Neil is (in his nature) paying particular detail as to why box failed and this will no doubt help with its build up and if done correctly should be trouble free and very strong, certainl strong enough to handle the power / torque it will be running.


_________________
GTI-R-US.co.uk
 In association with
Torque Of The South Motorsport

Nissan Performance & Tuning Centre
Services provided

Forge Engine rebuilds to specification
Body Restoration, Fabrication, Repair
Paint refinishing facilities
Ecu re-mapping-Performance upgrades
Auto Diagnostics, Injector cleaning  
Race & Suspension setup
General Servicing, Mots, tyre fitting
Full workshop facilities
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

234Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 3:05 pm

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
Only shaft running clearance will be input, diff best kept right in nissan spec preload, what you do with mainshaft depends on if keep any helical gears or go 100% straightcut as then you could swap out the taper bearings for ball bearings & float set the shaft, if stick with helicals thus need of tapers you got keep preload and if want be safe setting to lower end of oem preload would be good.
2 main harsh forces you got watch for is load on case for sc gears forcing shafts apart & shaft shuttling (if still got helical gears) caused by too much shaft float & that kills bearings & casings if extreme .
Main concern with par (& found ppg worse) is lack of up front details online or supplied with kit.
Even recommended oil wasn't mentioned and they did have some issues mentioned over oil as the gear hub needle bearings didn't like some heavy & shock proof oils as reduced lubrication through them .
Like you found out that ppg 3/4 selector is well short & pulls the syncro off centre which tilts it inducing wear and is potential shift issue, it also twice the price it needs to be :-S
selector breaking is normally syncro assembly wear/issue but stronger one means any future issue keeps car drivable so can drive off track & even to a workshop for repair plus not have loose bits rattling around inside can save nasty mess/expense so worth doing really .
Quite a lot of 50A fwd & 4wd boxes on the par straightcut in Oz, Malaysia, New Zealand, Thailand and the US and they seem be doing ok , no news is good news so they say,  people don't get inspired to write threads unless it about the problems :-) human nature I guess.
Can't go far wrong with the 4 gear kit and with difficulty finding worthy used oem gear sets for performance use you probably going see more PAR being built up.
I think main thing for people doing a box is to use someone tried & tested, if Bobs gearbox guys doing the PAR & the users giving thumbs up then it worth effort to use them if have no local services suitable. It too big an expense & hassle from a bad box is much more than hassle to travel or ship box to proven builder .

235Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 7:46 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Pete's given me a contact who's done a few gtir rebuilds so ill definitly be contacting him for all lessons learnt and advice etc.
Bob, could up you please PM the contact that did your rebuilds?
Pete's obviously free to go anywhere he chooses for his rebuild so no problems if this goes to an experienced Gtir builder, ive only done 1 (my own) and id do the same in his shoes.
Lets face it, his lucks gotta change sometime Laughing

236Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 7:56 pm

johnny gtir

johnny gtir
moderator
moderator
Did you speak with previous builder Pete ?

237Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 8:39 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
Neil I'm more than happy for you to do this, you've come this far with it and would be a shame for you not to go the full hog with it, Johnny, yes I have to cut a long story short basically he's admitted he's taken the reverse locker out but swears blind it's nothing to do with it what so ever, he's said he wouldn't give compensation out but would refund the cost of the build ( In my eyes that's admitting responsibility). Neil says he should be able to get some evidence together to prove with out doubt that by removing the mechanism it's caused the damaged, so I may have to threaten him with court action, I really don't want to go down that road but if I have to.......so so far that's where we are at! I've emailed par on prices for spare gears but as per usual I'm wating for a response Rolling Eyes

238Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 8:49 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Thanks for having faith in me mate, Very Happy
I thought it would also be good idea to create a new post detailing every step of the rebuild so its up for scrutiny. Suspect

Trying to explain how the reverse interlock mechanism works is tricky because its a complex bit of kit so ill do a video instead.
Hopefully ill be able show that while in 1st, reverse gear can slide along the shaft and into contact if the mechanism isnt fitted.
Then ill fit the mechanism and show that it cant.

239Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 8:58 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
If I didn't I wouldn't of left it with you, it's obvious for any one to see you know your onions! Yes a new post on the rebuild sounds like a damned good idea and very interesting to see and read (and possibly for future reference for others)
Video sounds an even better idea so people (like myself) who have no real understanding as to what goes off inside the box, can actually see how it works! Saying that though I've got a much better understanding than I did a few weeks ago, and videos I've watched online explaining things etc, it's all very interesting.

240Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 9:12 pm

burrows1980

burrows1980
^ defo, it's the only thing I have t stripped down because of my lack of understanding.. Not planning on stripping mine but will be really handy to know how it all works etc.. Come on Neil pull your finger out and get cracking Laughing

241Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 20th June 2016, 10:04 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Bear in it was 1st gear synchro teeth that sheared, 1st gear syncro that burned out, 1st gear that overheated, and theres severe impact damage on the reverse gears to the non drive flanks (eg back driven)

This is an article from Fords cheif engineer for transmissions.

Will It Ruin My Car?
Transmissions are not meant to engage reverse while traveling forward. Oh sure, you can jam it in at the bottom of your driveway apron while you're still rolling a little, but even that's not the best of practices.

Manual transmissions have physical locks in the shift mechanism to make selecting reverse an active exercise. Barring lockout rings or pushing down on the stick shift, deliberately trying to select reverse while driving forward at normal speeds is basically impossible with a manual. "The main problem you're going to be fighting is what you're trying to get the thing to do is something it really does not want to do," Renneker continued. The gearset would likely growl at you if you tried, and if the protest of the machinery doesn't instantly deter you, it could be injurious to your transmission. Ford's Trans guru elaborated that the synchronizer mechanism in manuals is only designed to change the speed of transmission internals enough for smooth engagement. Attempting reverse at road speed would force the synchros to try matching shaft speeds, building up lots of heat and potentially causing damage. "It won't be effective, it won't do anything for you, and secondly, you're going to be putting a lot of extra stress on that synchronizer," he told AOL Autos. In other words, it's best not to try it.

242Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 6:38 am

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
Also forgot to mention the when I spoke to the gear box guy he openly admitted to me (and Niel) that he didn't take any measurements at all, for shimming, floats/tolerances etc because 'he would never get anything done' those were his words!
I've spoken to par, the 2 new gears are going to cost me £520 plus postage, he may be able to pinch them off a remaining set he has, if not it'll be a 4-6 week wait....great! Plus the £200 for the engineer plus the £177 I've spent on parts all ready.......happy days

243Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 7:32 am

ducie54

ducie54
I hope u got a phone recording of ur conversations in case you take him to court.

244Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 8:04 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician
I don't actually know legality of phone recording for court use plus you have ask/state a call is being recorded, expect judges would spot he a lying dumbass anyhow plus good physical evidence and hopefully they themselves experienced garage hassles ;-)
Going the court route would be slow and painful but with his admission of leaving parts out and not doing any shimming (which about normal in your budget box build shops) plus good photo and video evidence would be plus points for you, negatives are no paperwork and how his story change in court hearing plus if win how slow will full payment take if done in installments. The guy was a lemon and indeed needs be shown he is .
Main thing with box builds is being fussy, everything laid out with good working method/routine so nothing mixed up or lost, good inspection/measurements and inspecting as building up to spot any faults/mistakes . Is pretty easy if compare it to say a commercial truck gearbox. Having said that I remember my first ever gearbox opening which was a 4 speed Nissan from late 70s sunny, wasn't pretty lol . Sure cosmic will do fine as actually making effort work things out and check and recheck is what counts, leaving bits out and not bothering with shaft bearing shimming and hub clearances on shaft is the big issue and one lot of in the trade shops don't do as not easy, takes time & knowledge .
Going be like 1500gbp in bills, hope you do get decent lump of wedge back, main thing is this time should see you sorted .

245Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 10:11 am

shroom

shroom
moderator
moderator
Why didnt he give you a receipt is he also trying to dodge tax? I know who im more scared of and its defo the tax man lol


_________________
Now Shagging sheep on the cheap
You wont find one that's for keeps
Spend the money, find a honey

'Shit' think I need to sell my Sunny!

But woman cant replace a sheep
Oh I wish that for the peace!
But I really cant find my honey
The only one I would give my money
Is one with a great big fleece
And then I would be at peace...

246Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 6:21 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Hey Pete, I've partially reassembled your tranny with just the shift mechanism and reverse gears,
I'm hoping I can video what happened by end of week.
Gotta put my 2 screaming kids to bed now
Help!  - Page 10 Img_2034

247Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 6:34 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club
That's great cheers Neil, look forward to seeing it, will be interesting to see

248Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 21st June 2016, 7:05 pm

johnny gtir

johnny gtir
moderator
moderator
Seeing as were on topic what can be checked/rebuilt on rear diff's and transfer boxes. Anyone had any fails ?

249Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 22nd June 2016, 10:26 am

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management
@Cosmic73 wrote:Pete's given me a contact who's done a few gtir rebuilds so ill definitly be contacting him for all lessons learnt and advice etc.
Bob, could up you please PM the contact that did your rebuilds?
Pete's obviously free to go anywhere he chooses for his rebuild so no problems if this goes to an experienced Gtir builder, ive only done 1 (my own) and id do the same in his shoes.
Lets face it, his lucks gotta change sometime Laughing


Really do hope thats not one of the theiving group of assholes known as D"" W"""
Ask a few on here about his so called expertise.......he should stick to making garden gates and not attempt anything mechanical at others expense........just ask James gtir for one or lindsay from Ireland to name but a few.

Wheres Rob Johnsons car & huge amounts of money you took off him eh? oh yeah hes only waited around 4 years and still no car Rolling Eyes

Seems the truth upsets a few people on fb so they retaliate (same old crowd) with one sided absolute bollox.
Eds behind it all just uses people to spread shite about us, funny how we get at least half his customers down here isnt it, with blown engines and so forth......... well crack on Ed & Co
Your turns coming very very soon, you mark my words.


_________________
GTI-R-US.co.uk
 In association with
Torque Of The South Motorsport

Nissan Performance & Tuning Centre
Services provided

Forge Engine rebuilds to specification
Body Restoration, Fabrication, Repair
Paint refinishing facilities
Ecu re-mapping-Performance upgrades
Auto Diagnostics, Injector cleaning  
Race & Suspension setup
General Servicing, Mots, tyre fitting
Full workshop facilities
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

250Help!  - Page 10 Empty Re: Help! on 24th June 2016, 10:18 pm

Cosmic73

Cosmic73
Hey Pete, ive spent a few hours simulating reverse shifts on your partially assembled box and discovered the following;
For every 5 successful shifts from neutral into reverse, 1 shift will result in the reverse idler gear sticking half way along the idler shaft.
The location where this occurs matches exactly the contact damage on the 1st/2nd hub ring teeth where reverse torque goes from the idler to hub to mainshaft.
If you give the mechanism a sharp tap it snaps back into place.
The entire mechanism is rusty on its contact surfaces and quite stiff.

So Pete, as you told me a few days back, the first thing you did when you got in car was reverse it.
But i dont think it went fully into reverse,
Instead of the teeth contacting all 10mm facewidth, they only contacted 1mm.
As a result contact stress would've been 10x higher than usual.

1st gear was then selected and the synchro pre-engaged but 1mm of reverse was still engaged.
As the hub travelled left deeper into engagement, the reverse gear wouldve travelled with it while still slightly engaged.
The  speed differentials resulted in the synchro quickly wearing out, then shearing the teeth.

The heat would've expanded 1st and 2nd gears beyond their float (par gears are tight anyhow) which explains why their two outer axial hub faces picked up then melted, not their inner faces or the shaft journals.

By the time you were in 3rd there was too much shit travelling round.

Ive videoed the sticky reverse etc,
Tommorow ill fit the missing 5th-reverse check switch to see if it forces reverse to fully snap back.
If it does, you've got the builder by the nuts, if it doesnt then you dont and ive come to the end of the road. Very Happy Very Happy

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